Old Colwyn (East) Residents’ Association
Minute of a talk by David Jones MP for Clwyd West and
Shadow Minister for Wales on 13th August 2008
David thanked the chair for the introduction, he agreed that it was his third visit to the meeting as MP and said that it is always a pleasure to attend.
He amused the meeting by saying that at present Parliament is in recess and he has so many people asking him how he is enjoying his “holidays”. He recalled that he has meetings every day this week. He said that it is good to attend and see how well such an association can be run.
He mentioned that he is kept closely informed of the activities of the association and supplied with local photos by the secretary. He commented that when he is sitting in the Houses of Parliament on a rainy day, it is nice to receive a picture of a sparrowhawk having its lunch in St John’s Church Garden.
He said that he is kept in touch with the area by both the communications from the secretary and Cliff Prout. He also works closely with the local Councillors, Cheryl Carlisle, Brian Cossey and also Bob Squire and Glyn Jones of the Eirias Ward who are assiduous in letting him know what is happening locally. In this way he feels “tapped in to” the area even when sitting 250 miles away in Westminster.
David referred to a comprehensive report given from the agenda and commented that the issues that were identified were echoed to a greater or lesser extent by other communities in Clwyd West. Much of the local crime and nuisance report he said could be summed up as low level antisocial behaviour and it is this issue which tends to make peoples’ lives a little bit less pleasant. He said that he was glad to see that the CBMs are working hard but was concerned as has been identified in the agenda that the two wards have been merged into one for the purpose of community policing.
David expressed a view that he does not believe that large neighbourhood policing areas is good enough and found it a worrying reference that police cars drive by in cars and then youths come out and continue with the same behaviour that they were doing when the police arrived. He continued by intimating that we all know that what we need are more police officers on foot: a visible police presence on the streets is probably what does more to deter crime than anything else.
He said that on average, in North Wales, officers are spending 37% of their time doing clerical work behind a desk rather than out in front line policing. He continued to say that he was glad that we were raising our concerns with the police as indeed he is also.
He intimated that Ruthin has exactly the same type of unruly behaviour on the streets principally but not exclusively by a minority of young people at weekends. It is his hope that there will be more high profile policing and wondered if that might come to fruition in the next eighteen months.
He congratulated the residents association on the award of the Green Pennant in respect of St John’s Church Garden which he said always reminds him of what can be done in an urban location. It showed great imagination and got so many agencies involved in the project. It has been duplicated in St Cynbryd’s in Llandulas he said and all credit to Cliff Prout who has been involved in the project and funding.
He recalled that he once referred to Cliff as the indefatigable Cliff Prout and Cliff had complained that it made him sound like a battleship. David’s talk was littered with amusing asides which made his talk all the more enjoyable.
He continued to say that he was pleased to see the announcement of the results of the Wales in Bloom awards. “That is something which Colwyn Bay can take great pride in” he said.
David said that at last year’s meeting he had expressed his concern at the future of Wales in Bloom because there was concern that the Welsh Assembly would not continue its funding of the competition. It has obviously obtained funding for the last year and remains to be seen whether the funding continues. If there was any suggestion of withdrawing funding he would be very concerned and make representations about it because in his view Wales in Bloom does more to instil civic pride throughout the length and breadth of Wales than almost any other competition.
He also referred to an issue on the agenda about the water industry and pollution of beaches. This was a reference to a letter that appeared in the Sunday Times two or three weeks ago. He had a meeting the previous day with Keith Ashcroft, the Chief Executive of the Environment Agency in North Wales. Concern had been expressed about this particular issue of emergency overflows into the sea and a more worrying issue which was the pollution of the River Clwyd two weeks ago. There was an escape which turned eastwards causing some pollution to Rhyl.
Mr Ashcroft was aware of the issues; more importantly, David continued to say that he was concerned about the level of funding for the Environment Agency which has a lot that it is called upon to do particularly in terms of flood protection and drainage maintenance. The funding that it gets is inadequate. The problem with drainage maintenance is that it is cumulative. If not maintained this year it remains to be maintained with others that require care. We are laying up problems for the future if we don’t address the problems now. There are problems he said throughout Clwyd West.
With regard to the Promenade which had been referred to on the agenda, David said that he wished to touch on a topical issue, that of the Colwyn Pier. Mr Hunt the proprietor was declared bankrupt and has failed to have the order set aside. The pier therefore is the property of the Official Receiver who is Mr. Hunt’s Trustee in Bankruptcy.
He said that the appearance of the pier is nothing short of a disgrace and if it were refurbished it would be an asset to the Colwyn Bay. It is becoming an eyesore. At a meeting last Friday with the Acting Chief Executive of Conwy CBC, the pier was discussed with some concern. David now proposes to talk to the Official Receiver and find out what plans he has got for the pier which appears to be a negative asset. There is therefore potential for something to be done.
David would like to convene a public meeting relatively shortly following the meeting with the Trustee in Bankruptcy about his intentions to see whether the people of Colwyn Bay have any ideas as to what should be done with the pier. It could cost as much as £4million to refurbish.
He asked for the backing of the public of Colwyn Bay and Old Colwyn in convening the meeting.
Bangor Pier had been similarly rescued he said and people of Bangor had each bought a plank. It would need a business plan and not to be embarked upon lightly. It would need to be taken forward under the banner of a Trust or Company limited by Guarantee.
Mr Jones then opened the question and answer session.
Cliff Prout made a point about Wales in Bloom. When talking to judges he said, funding is always a topic of concern. This year, it seems that Wales in Bloom just got through by the skin of its teeth he said. Possibly next year unless things improve they may only be able to hold the Neighbourhood Awards which is funded by Britain in Bloom. The main competition classes may fall by the wayside. The problem has been, he continued that the Welsh Assembly failed to provide the support that it had in the past, funding dropped from £30,000 to £5000. It is thought that they might not even provide any funding next year. The reason is that a certain Minister in the WAG does not believe in competition. They are now thinking of relaunching it as Wales in Bloom Campaign leaving out the word competition.
David replied that his view is that competitions are great because if you win you feel proud and if you don’t win you are more impelled to win next time.
Cliff commented that the people involved in these competitions are community volunteers and there is no pay whatsoever. The reward is the recognition of the work that has been done and the difference made to the environment.
David asked Cliff to keep him informed on any developments with this issue and promised his support. He also commented that failure of Wales in Bloom would preclude Colwyn from involvement in Britain in Bloom.
Councillor Squire on behalf of his fellow councillors pledged support to David on the pier proposals if that was possible. Councillor Carlisle and he were at a meeting last week when the consultants presented their proposals for the whole of the Colwyn Bay waterfront. It is a well advanced scheme. He commented that he believed that it would be as well to involve the consultants in any consultation scheme because the pier was mentioned by them and that could be the “jewel in the crown” of the whole promenade project. Something else surprising came out of the presentation; Colwyn Bay’s beach is one of the biggest beaches in the world; bigger for instance than the Copa Cobana beach and Blackpool and Brighton beaches. It has the most potential for development that the consultants had ever seen. This he described as exciting for the area but described the pier as a slum on stilts at present.
David added that he agreed that it has the potential to be the jewel in the crown but if it continues the way it is doing then it will detract heavily from anything that is proposed.
Llysfaen Town Councillor Joe Blakesly added that without mentioning names, certain County Councillors had suggested that if there is no proper business plan proposal, it should be demolished because it will get in the way of the development process. He agreed with the idea of a public meeting.
David summed the matter up by saying that the first step is discuss the matter with the Official Receiver and take matters from there.
There were a few comments that Friends of the Pier still existed although their involvement
in Mr. Hunt’s ideas and decision making process had been limited by his own intentions.
The group is very much just in tick-
Councillor Carlisle commented that the consultants had said that the pier was absolutely vital to the scheme and there were also ideas to open up the tunnel again to the Town. A meeting would take place to ask local residents what they want to see.
David added that the consultants will probably examine the new circumstances and the Acting Chief Executive had seemed supportive of his idea to call a public meeting if the circumstances were right. This he found encouraging.
A resident asked if anything can be done to reverse the government decision to give open ended licensing hours.
David replied that Gordon Brown has apparently asked the civil servants to look at the issue. There are conflicting statistics about the issue. Evidence seen on the streets shows that we have not adopted a Café Culture in this country; it is instead becoming more of a yob culture which seems to extend further into the evening. He raises the issue in Parliament whenever he has the opportunity. It will take a long time before the government will admit that it “got it wrong”. He added that he is not unhopeful on the issue.
Councillor Squire commented that powers still exist in the licensing regime to tackle
the licensing issue. The big issue is on-
David agreed and added that things have improved a lot in London since they banned drink on the Tube. He stated his own personal view is that the liberalisation of drinking hours has not been a good thing, it should have been far more restricted and he would like to see it restricted again.
Roger Parry added that he did not know about the licensing laws but all the licensed premises seemed to be reasonably well run. The biggest problem in his view is supermarkets selling cheap drink to young people.
David agreed and added that there is also another consequence; he is concerned at the number of pubs that are closing up and down the country. He had recently visited Yorkshire and had noticed lots of nice village pubs and pubs in town centres shutting. His view is that a well run pub is the best way to regulate drinking he said. It is now so expensive the smoking ban is also a factor, and that coupled with the cost of fuel, stopping people travelling, unruly behaviour keeping people off the streets. He commented that some young people were quoted in our agenda as finding Old Colwyn quite scary at the weekend.
All these factors tend to make people stay at home and the supermarkets regard this as a marketing opportunity and sell alcohol as a loss leader absorbing the duty increase.
It was discussed that when the government put extra duty on alcohol, landlords have to put extra duty on beer in the pubs and the supermarkets sell alcohol cheaply as a loss leader. Less and less people go to the pubs as a result. Also the operators of pubs are asset stripping the pubs which are manned by tenants, which is another cause of pubs closing. If a tenant has a successful business, the operator can demand more rent at a review and part of the food income. This often causes friction and pubs close as a result, this has happened in Old Colwyn in recent times.
The secretary asked David to comment on his view. Some years ago, the government decided to change policing to the Community based model that we have now. North Wales rolled that out as a leader and the projected model was one CBM in every ward.
Because of government under funding that has not happened. We now have an unsatisfactory state now where we do not have enough CBMs, we do not have enough Response Officers to respond to incidents and it has all been driven by the government. Because the police are working to government goals they are telling the government what they want to hear. It is all being twisted to appear that the community policing model envisaged by the government is succeeding. On the ground it is not succeeding.
David replied politics does creep into policing which is the point you are making and I think that is absolutely right.
He continued to explain about a proposal that has been developed recently, that of elected police commissioners who would set policing agendas locally. At present the chief constable is responsible for all operational matters and to a large extent for the expenditure of money. The influence of the police authority is fairly low. David stated that he would like to see an elected police commissioner as a good way forward being in favour of localism. So much is centrally directed these days.
The secretary asked why in that case is it not centrally funded? The public is being asked to pay more and more year on year.
David replied that without wishing to become political, it is a form of stealth taxation.
The secretary asked what the Conservative party would do about it.
David replied that the Conservatives are in favour of elected police commissioners, they developed that policy at the last election. The government is showing an interest in it too which is quite good. It has to be properly funded.
It is also a question of prioritisation, the police commissioner can set the policing agenda, the most obvious being one always thrown up at meetings, “Does North Wales need police horses?”
The same problems exist across Clwyd West of antisocial behaviour, unruly behaviour outside pubs. In Ruthin there are such problems associated with one poorly run pub causing problems everywhere else and two police officers covering and area from Cerig y Drudion through to Mold on a Saturday night. Sometimes Ruthin is like the Wild West.
The secretary commented that that is what our Chief Constable has done to North Wales at the behest of the government but nobody is really reviewing it, we get inspected every year by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary but they are looking at it from a government perspective and not from a local person perspective and perhaps that is where a commissioner would come in.
David Jones replied Well it would because you would have a locally driven agenda rather than a centrally driven agenda and if one particular commissioner got good results on his own patch then it would be likely that others would start to emulate the good practice. That probably would reduce crime even further. We have a target driven culture that permeates not only policing but health care and other areas. The targets don’t really mean anything because they are self fulfilling.
The secretary asked if David thought that the Conservative party would have a similar target culture.
David replied that the Conservative Party does intend to reduce the target culture as it believes that professionals can be responsible for the way in which they conduct their profession. If they do not conduct their professions properly then there are ways of getting rid of them.
He commented that he had had an interesting letter from a young man from Colwyn Bay some time ago. He had had a lot of problems with antisocial behaviour in his area and he sent a copy of a letter to the Local Authority; it stated that it is all very well for them to tell him that they are meeting various targets but that he is a very simple person.
If he does not hear people shouting in the streets, so far as he was concerned everything is alright. If his children are educated and happy with the results then everything is alright. If he has a medical problem and gets attended to within a reasonable time then everything is ok. He told the Local Authority that they can tell him as much as they want how they are meeting their targets; it is not making him feel any happier.
David said that he felt that was a very sensible way of thinking about the issue and has kept the letter. People know when there is something wrong. You can talk until blue in the face about how targets are being met but if people do not feel safe, don’t feel they are getting treated in time or don’t feel that their children are getting a decent education, then the targets are meaningless.
Councillor Squire commented that the Welsh Assembly is worse than anyone for performance indicators that are completely meaningless. In the last ten years, it has brought in a regime of people who have no experience, don’t know what the front line is like and just reflect on these fancy performance indicators that do not mean a light to anybody. He said that he has taken them to task at the Council time and time again. They come with these fancy documents all funded by the Welsh Assembly with colours for meeting target or not, red is very bad. An example is food hygiene, high risk inspections; they were supposed to do 250 set targets in 6 months. They did 248, they were given a red classification and a whole set of documentation as to why they were two under which is a nonsense. The manager is there to make sure the premises are right and they are accountable to others such as the Food Standards Agency. So they are demanding performance indicators with no idea themselves. The persons providing the service suffer.
A resident asked what the job of the Police Commissioner would be what would he actually do?
David replied that the Commissioner would be responsible for setting the framework of policing locally. Operational matters would remain with the chief constable. They would work together in assessing what the priorities were for the particular area or for a particular force area. The person is responsible to the electorate, people are getting a say in the way that they are policed. At the moment, you have the Police Authority which is not directly elected and is in any event is fairly toothless. The Authority occasionally tut tuts when certain things happen.
A resident could write to the Commissioner and complain about for instance Saturday evenings in the centre of Old Colwyn, there are youths causing problems, drinking and shouting and making my life miserable and the resident could say “and what are you going to do about it?” The Commissioner is aware that electorate is watching his or her performance and if things don’t get better, he or she loses the post. Accountability is being lost across the board; this is one way of reintroducing it.
Llysfaen Town Councillor Joe Blakesly asked how many Commissioners there would be for the North Wales force area. Would a resident be able to shop around for instance, like a mayor.
David replied that there would be one, a similar state of affairs to the one that we have in London. There is a Mayor but he is subject to scrutiny by an assembly. He said that it would not be necessary to have too big a body in North Wales. He said that he is in favour of local management such as locally elected mayors.
A resident asked if the chief constable could overrule anything that the Commissioner said.
David replied that the Chief Constable would retain operational responsibility. He would be responsible for the direction of response to a particular incident. Overall in the case of assessing priorities, the Commissioner would work with the Chief Constable. It would put paid to some of the more bizarre decisions that have been made and would result in a style of policing that would find favour with the people who reside in the police force area.
The Chair asked who would be responsible for the finances as there have been a few overspends recently.
David replied that the Chief Constable would retain responsibility for operational expenditure but strategic expenditure would have to be agreed with the Commissioner. The police precept has been rocketing over the last few years.
The Chair continued to say that is the annoying part, we have been promised more police officers, we paid more money and are getting less officers.
David replied that we were promised 100 extra officers in exchange for a substantial increase in the police precept which failed to materialise and actually declined.
A resident asked if there would still be a Police Authority.
David replied not in its present form.
Peter Lawrence asked for thoughts about potential changes to the Health Service in North Wales or in Wales.
David replied that the problem is that it is constantly being reorganised, we are effectively getting back to what we changed a few years ago. He said that he had always thought that local heath boards were not a sensible idea, they were too small to form a sensible unit of governance of the health service. For example the hospices that exist; they were finding that they were having to negotiate with several health boards around them. They therefore had one individual employed more or less exclusively for the purpose of negotiating with health boards which was not sensible. Each Health Board had a Chief Executive, deputy and so on…. There were no economies of scale.
“Health provision in Wales is generally worrying. Last year when I spoke to you, I was concerned about what was happening over neurosurgery and the suggestions that patients should go to South Wales for elective surgery. They have abandoned that idea ultimately. The Parliamentary Select Committee is still looking at this issue.
The provision of health services is far too centralised, I would like to see the professionals given far more discretion in the delivery of health care and larger health areas are probably a good idea but basically we are just going back to where we were just a few years ago and it seems to have been a terrific waste of time and money.
Councillor Carlisle reported that there had been a large meeting that day over new proposals put forward by the Welsh Assembly Government to lump learning disabilities and mental health together under a separate trust for the whole of Wales which would cause absolute chaos for the children and adults who live in this country, they would be stigmatised and sent to separate areas from the rest of the population by a different authority.
David replied that he had already had a lot of representations about the proposals which he is pursuing.
The Chair summed up that we had had a good discussion and thanked David very much for attending to speak. It is a rich experience for the association.
David replied Thank you for having me and I look forward to coming back next year.
There was a resounding round of applause for David Jones MP for Clwyd West and Shadow Minister for Wales
