Old Colwyn East Residents’ Association
Meeting between Chief Superintendent Michele Williams and the secretaryAt 2pm on Thursday 2nd August 2007 at Central Division HQ St Asaph.
At the start of the meeting it was established that the meeting was at the request of the Chief Superintendent, to put her perspective against comments made in documents written by the secretary about police management.
The Chief Superintendent commented that the residents association through the secretary appears to have issues with the more senior management of North Wales Police about the policing resources available to Old Colwyn. This was agreed, together with the access to policing via the Control Room, and the quality of service from some of the staff in the control room being considered not good.
The secretary said that he had been castigated for making one call to a PCSO about an active incident involving four young lads. The Chief Superintendent’s view was that the secretary chooses to debate in the public arena so any criticism is fair.
The secretary pointed out that the young people concerned were only fourteen and it had been made to sound as if the he had asked the PCSO to attend a serious aggressive incident where he was in danger. He made the point that he only gives information and hopes that an officer will respond, he does not seek to deploy an officer.
The Chief Superintendent linked it with another incident where CCTV rang the PCSO and directed him to an incident. She told the secretary that he had been copied in to the report. When asked to clarify the details of the incident, the Chief Superintendent did so; it was a theft with two young boys seen on CCTV coming out of a supermarket. PCSOs have no powers to deal with that type of incident she said, and anyway, it was on CCTV and the chances were that someone would have recognised them.
The secretary told the Chief Superintendent that if CCTV contacted the officer direct, that was nothing to do with him. The only contact that the secretary had with CCTV on occasion was occasionally to ring and ask that they record an incident for the information of a police officer, rather than spending six minutes ringing the control room, to ask a call taker to ask CCTV to record the incident, by which time the people would have probably moved.
The Chief Superintendent made the point that the police force works to Health and Safety legislation and is therefore obliged to risk assess everything. She also made the point that it is not enough for the officers themselves to assess an incident, the police have to make sure that there are processes in place that provide that assessment. She acknowledged the dissatisfaction with the control room; she stated that she does not control the control room. Superintendent Turton is the officer in charge and she offered to arrange a meeting with the officer for the committee and he would explain some of the challenges in a world where everyone has a mobile phone.
Chief Superintendent Williams associated herself with the point, which as well made by Inspector Jane Banham that if an incident is ongoing, then reporting it has to be through the control room for very valid reasons. The secretary accepted that point and stated that it normally always does.
The secretary stated that the Chief Constable in his annual report has said that the control room has been a success; he argued that from a public perspective it is not. The Chief Superintendent replied that she does not get lots of negative feedback about the control room.
The Chief Superintendent said that she could help control room if she was prepared to give up twenty police officers from her division, they would have to come from Colwyn Bay and other stations. The secretary replied that people do not want their police officers in the control room; the officers are required on the street and able to come and deal with incidents.
The secretary went on to ask rhetorically, what the purpose is of taking two hundred policemen out of the police service and substituting some of the posts with officers who are not allowed to deal with confrontational situations. It is obviously to appease people who want to see officers walking the streets. Speaking of the Old Colwyn PCSO, the secretary said that he is totally competent with his information gathering, organisation and problem solving skills, a concept that there is no issue with, but he is not allowed to deal with confrontation situations.
The Chief Superintendent clarified that PCSOs cannot deal with confrontational situations, this is government policy and there is nothing that she can do about it. The secretary quoted figures the Deputy Chief Constable was reputed to have said that for every 10 PCSOs you could get 8 or 9 constables. She did not agree and said that that was using the very basic pay and that a 15 year constable is far more expensive than a grade 5 PCSO. She said it is government policy and that the police have absolutely no option, the availability of funding dictates the makeup of the force. Her hands are tied with the ratio of PCSOs to Constables.
The government has put together the model of Neighbourhood policing.
The government had promised 260 PCSOs and had then refused a batch of funding. The secretary alluded to the micromanagement of crime and other aspects by the government. They are telling the police force how to do its job, that for instance the force will have PCSOs rather than constables. He also said that though he likes PCSOs, he also wants officers who can respond and deal with confrontational incidents which are happening and happen quite frequently in Old Colwyn.
The secretary said that he had received comments from villagers that while he had been away on holiday, the local officers had only been seen once in the village.
The Chief Superintendent said that she wondered if the police had created an expectation that is unrealistic. She went on to talk about the area where she lives, in what sounded remarkably like a parable.
She spoke of a play area near where she lives. She occasionally finds bottles and cans whilst walking her dogs and puts them in the bin. It is months since she has seen her local officer near that particular place. More recently she had noticed a footpath where foliage is now overgrown and empty cans have started to appear. She had reported this directly to the council as requiring attention. The Chief Superintendent went on to say that she did understand how the secretary feels about the environment; a lack of care does increase fear of crime.
She said that she has emailed the CBM direct a couple of times about previous problems She stated that she personally accepts that in the summer months, she is never going to be able to live in a completely sterile area at all. She tempers her wishes with realism that because of the nature of the area where she lives, that she may see groups of youngsters with the odd can of lager. The secretary asked her if she called the police in these instances and she replied that she did not.
She went on to say that she would expect the local CBM to have an action plan to deal with issues like this. She would also like to see the council coming to clear the playground on a Monday, so that it does not invite litter to be thrown and bottles to be left. They could put a litter bin in the vicinity. She said that she would like to think that her CBM is working with the off-licences and paying periodic visits to deal with these youngsters to try and problem solve it. She would be reassured that the area was being appropriately policed if this was the case. However as so often the case the local authority in her area has allowed planning permission for houses which are going to be inhabited by families but have made no provision for young people. She reiterated that there was an extensive action plan in place for old Colwyn and said that she would ensure that it was shared with him.
The secretary said that the Colwyn Local Authority is very good and quoted three instances,
(a) Three new houses are currently being finished and provided with services in the village. The contractors two days ago had lit a very smoky fire in a brazier. The smoke covered the centre of the village causing nuisance. It was reported to the Council who visited the site the next day when they banned any further fires. The next day they got back to the person who reported the matter. He made the point that that is effective answering of the telephone, effective action and effective feedback.
(b) The secretary had reported a snacks wagon to the council which was parking on the prom in case it was unlicensed. The council emailed thanks for the information and it will be looked into
(c) Two former offenders called at a house on 11th July. One introduced himself as a former offender and showed a scrawled card that he could have made himself and said he was selling household goods. He was told nothing was required whereupon he pressed the householder to just buy some dusters. The householder rang the police who asked if the person had a card and if he was polite and offered to get the local officer to call back. The householder was unhappy, rang the Council who made enquiries with agencies and rang back and rang the police to say that the callers appeared to be bogus pedlars. There has been another instance locally of an aggressive pedlar. The police were informed and he was found and arrested as a wanted person. Such visits are not acceptable in an area with high levels of elderly and vulnerable people. That again is effective action by the Council.
The Chief Superintendent made the point that the police get a lot more calls than the council and pointed out that both agencies had strengths and weaknesses; the Council has had six negative ombudsmen’s reports recently. The secretary stated that the Council people responsible for getting things done are very responsive. That is what is required of the police force when you have got a problem.
The secretary reiterated that he is constantly working with the police and giving information and helping the police.
The secretary stated that there is no issue with the local police. There is a police force and then there is a policy, such as; our police force will have a mounted section and our police force will have a needle exchange in Colwyn Bay, thus labelling Colwyn Bay.
The Chief Superintendent then pointed out that the associations’ issues were with the Chief Constable in many respects and the secretary agreed but replied that the Chief Constable cannot be separated from the police force.
The Chief Superintendent spoke of certain emails written by the secretary taking issue with police management and asked that he be specific about the management referred to in future, the Central Division team were doing their best to deliver a service to residents. The secretary agreed that he would.
The secretary made the point when asked, that we want our local policing team to be effective in tackling the things which are the same as they were four years ago.
He added that the officers have achieved things recently, The “Ivor’s wall and sheds” operation had a good effect on the village but has moved the people concerned on to other areas. They did something which was very effective working with partners and our association.
The secretary went on to say that there are a few nasty characters in Old Colwyn and outlined to the Chief Superintendent some serious incidents which had happened over the last few years which have a bearing on the present concern about groups of youths congregating and behaving badly in the area regularly.
The secretary reiterated that there is dissatisfaction with the control room.
The Chief Superintendent again offered to arrange for the Committee, a visit to the Control Room to discuss matters with the officers who manage that division.
The Chief Superintendent stated that there are rigorous procedures in place to answer telephones more quickly and the control room team will be working on an action plan for improvement.
She also stated that Inspector Jane Banham has got a good team in Colwyn Bay and she is focussed on the issues and the problems; they can’t solve everything but will keep trying their very best.