Old Colwyn (East) Residents’ Association
Minute of Talk about Neighbourhood Policing by
Inspector Jane Banham ~ July 11th 2007
Inspector Jane Banham was welcomed to the meeting by the Chair. She introduced herself as the District Inspector for East Conwy and outlined her objectives as
· An introduction as to what neighbourhood policing is
· How it is intended to work
· What the neighbourhood policing team have been doing and are doing to try and improve things in Old Colwyn.
Inspector Banham outlined her role as the District Inspector for East Conwy which covers sixteen electoral wards stretching from the Blue Bridge in Kinmel Bay to the Little Orme in Penrhyn Bay.
The area goes south as far as Mochdre in the west up into Bryn y Maen and Colwyn Heights in to Colwyn Bay and then out to Abergele covering the rural areas south of Abergele bordering on Denbigh area.
She outlined her responsibility as not just for Neighbourhood Policing of the whole area but for the performance of the whole area in terms of crime and detection of crime, complaints about the quality of service with relation to the officers in her district.
The district covers three police stations, Colwyn Bay, Towyn and Abergele and there are officers based in all three stations. The staffing for East Conwy is fifty two Constables of which eleven are CBMs. There are eleven PCSOs, five Special Constables, Eight Sergeants and one Inspector.
Inspector Banham said that she was sure that officers that had been in the police for a long time or retired officers would say that a few years ago there used to be a lot more staff than that in the area. There certainly used to be more Inspectors. She recalled that when she worked in Rhyl there were five Inspectors just in Rhyl Police Station. She continued that because of the way in which the police service has been rationalised, the staff which she had outlined is what is available to her to police the area.
She was sure that everyone would agree including the police officers present that it would be great if there were more police officers. However that is the staffing level, there will be no more and she has to do the best with what is available.
Neighbourhood policing is about reducing crime and antisocial behaviour in the neighbourhoods in the area to make the better and safer places to live in. The Inspector described herself as a resident of old Colwyn and said that it is a great pleasure to attend and speak as some of the issues that the association talk about and complain about are relevant to her also, as she lives locally.
The Inspector said that there are all sorts of reports in the press but the reality is that in West and East Conwy, crime figures are down and detection figures are up.
She gave an example up to the 1st of April 2007; overall crime is down 16%. Assaults are up but that is because it includes assaults on police officers which are up and section 5 public order offences which she described as a low level public order offence causing alarm, harassment and distress which is now classed as an assault. She described the figures as slightly skewed therefore but assaults as a result are on the way up in Conwy. Theft of pedal cycles is also up. She referred to a recent case of theft of a scooter which had been taken on a previous occasion and when the police had made enquiries, it was left unsecured. People have ways of improving the situation therefore by securing their property.
Thefts from motor vehicles are down; Burglary is down as is robbery and serious violent crime. The Inspector outlined therefore that the police are doing some things right although nothing is perfect, there is still a lot of work to do.
She then outlined how the local policing team consisting of CBM Mike Williams and PCSO Martyn Lewis go about making the place a better place to live for all. They are dedicated to the Old Colwyn Community covering Eiras and Colwyn Wards. They do not cover response (to incidents), they are present for the community. Their job is to help reduce crime, to look at antisocial behaviour and the way that they can do it varies. The main role for Martyn the Police Community Support Officer is high visibility foot patrol. He is seen walking around she said maybe not enough but he does go out and walk and that is his main role walking and speaking to members of the community who know what is happening and can be the eyes and ears for the police, passing on information to him so that he can go away and try and solve the problems.
That is also Mike Williams’ role although she said that Mike being a police officer has more powers available to him than are available to a PCSO who has very limited powers to arrest or detain people.
Martyn the PCSO should be seen out a lot more than Mike the CBM whose job it is to receive the information from Martyn and put action plans in place to solve some of the problems that we have. The policy concerning Mike and Martyn is that they are not called away all the time to other jobs, She stated that since November, Mike has never been asked to cover response. There are some times when unfortunately Mike the CBM cannot be available locally, he might be called away to response, he might also as a police officer have to attend major incidents, such as murder, terrorist incidents or major disasters where officers are required quickly.
CBM Mike Williams should be here long term so that the public gets to know him and he gets to know local people in order that a relationship is built up. The Inspector’s view was that Mike and Martyn are doing that.
Inspector Banham said that local neighbourhood policing is therefore building relationships, passing information and solving problems together. She said if local people start giving them information and they start catching criminals which she added, we are all here to do, that then reassures the public that officers are doing their job. That is how it should work.
She outlined that in East Conwy there are 11CBMs and 11 PCSOs and prior to 1st of April 2007, there were 15 CBMs and 4 PCSOs which she equated to three officers better off than previously. There are thirty nine response officers and two police officers in admin roles. One of these two officers is the CBM coordinator, PC Dawn Williams; she does admin duties for the CBMs arranging meetings and other work. In that way it frees the CBMs from administration type work. The other detective constable is a research and development officer. Any information that comes in about criminality, that officer researches it and develops intelligence to make a case for a warrant. Of late the police have been knocking on quite a few doors as a result of that officer’s work, to execute warrants.
Mike and Martyn hold Neighbourhood Policing Meetings every three months in each of their wards. All the sixteen wards in East Conwy are covered by these quarterly meetings. The meetings are for the public and some of the local councillors to discuss issues and priorities which need to be addressed. It may be a police problem or a problem within the scope of one of the other partner agencies. An action plan is developed for the priorities discussed and three months later the officers should be in a position to report an outcome. In this way, the public has a say in what is important locally and the police are to some extent accountable for their actions in that respect.
If the police do not action an issue, the matter is reported to the Joint Action Group who will enquire into the circumstances and take action.
Roles
PCSOs and CBMs should be visible out and about.
Mike is looking at present at an action plan for Old Colwyn, in the last two weeks a number of scooters have gone missing.
Martyn and Mike are a point of contact for the community for liaison about problems and they liaise with other agencies.
They also provide victims of crime with security advice. They conduct enquiries and follow up enquiries for people who have been victims of Burglary (dwelling) and Hate Crime.
They conduct the neighbourhood policing meetings.
The Inspector then outlined recent work carried out.
An action plan has been running since April in Min y Don Park because of problems that were happening there.
Results so far ~ The MASE building has had lights donated by the police, a firm has been to measure up and they should be fitted soon.
Making Tracks have agreed to rebuild the wall outside the United Reform Church to stop youths from sitting on it and congregating
The council has agreed to trim the hedges and the trees to improve the natural lighting in the park and improve visibility for CCTV. This will be done in the Autumn when the foliage falls so as not to damage the trees and bushes.
The benches in the park have been moved to bring them under view of CCTV. They will be repositioned soon.
The Inspector referred to Ivor’s shed and wall and commented that the Community Services Team and making Tracks had done an excellent job there.
MASE and the BP Garage have been action planned in conjunction with the Council Licensing Officer. They will have to enforce the “Challenge 21” regarding youths going there to buy drink.
MASE have been action planned about the manner in which they run their premises and having door staff on duty at the time of concerts.
The Inspector said that at Miners Lane, Mike has just set up a Neighbourhood Watch Scheme. She advanced the theory that where you have a Neighbourhood Watch in the community, crime does go down.
Youth Services are actively working in Old Colwyn to set up and run a Youth Club.
Mike executed a drugs warrant on a local house recently which proved positive and the Council has given the occupant a final warning for breach of tenancy, the next step would be eviction.
Other warrants are planned in the near future.
A local youth has been charged with two offences of criminal damage, theft and assault and the break in at the Methodist Church recently. He is due in court during the next week for sentencing and the Youth Offending Team are working with that individual.
Another local who is presently on TAG from prison has breached the TAG and Probation are looking to send him back to prison.
Action Plan on missing scooters issue related to a local family.
The Inspector said that was a summary of some of the type of work that is done in Old Colwyn by the Neighbourhood Policing Team.
Question ~ If I wanted to speak to Mike or Martyn, how would I do that would I ring them direct or through control room.
Inspector Banham ~ If you wanted to discuss with them a problem that had previously occurred or is an issue for you but is not ongoing at that time, then Mike and Martyn are your contacts, direct, leave a message on their mobile, discuss with them whatever. If the issue is ongoing there and then, if something is happening there and then, then you need to go via the control room to do that. Control Room will have all the resources in front of them, they know what officers are available, where they are and then control room will deploy officers to that incident. So we are talking about something happening there and then; someone smashing your house door down; someone is damaging your fence; someone is throwing things at you; someone is assaulting you; something that is immediate, happening there and then that needs a police officer to go to there and then, Response go to that.
Question ~ Can you dial 999 to the control room?
Inspector Banham Well if it is an emergency dial 999, if it is not an emergency but you need to see someone there and then, I have brought some cards for you which is the non emergency number. I know the number but previously have had to look through yellow pages to find it. These cards are handy to put in your diary or stick to your phone showing the alternative number to 999. So if it is something that an officer has to attend to; it is response and to get those it is Control Room. If it is something that you just want to discuss, you have maybe had problems previously, or you want an update, then it is Martyn and Mike. Obviously if they are working they will speak to you there and then, if they are not, leave a message for them and they will get back to you. Mike and Martyn will be doing surgeries at the police post at the Interchange Building opposite the BP Garage in Old Colwyn at a certain time on a certain day and if you have anything that you want to discuss, you can pop along and see them.
The Chair ~ Knowing the area that you cover with so few people really
Inspector Banham ~ Yes
The Chair continues ~ Martyn has been smashing for us in Old Colwyn. He hasn’t got the powers that Mike has got and someone is pushing more PCSOs on us not in Old Colwyn but as a police force. It seems to be diluting the power rather than enforcing it. The other thing that we have got; criminality is one thing, but antisocial behaviour is our biggest problem and I am sure that it is in every ward that you have got.
Inspector Banham ~ Yes, it is
The Chair continues ~ No disrespect to you as a police force but from what I can gather, it is no different anywhere else
Inspector Banham ~ No you are right.
The Chair continues ~ perhaps we just moan a little more than other people. You have got to Police officers here, Martyn and Mike. They seem to be on fixed times, now we have got a problem in Wynn Avenue, sort of midnight to half past one. Certain people are getting their fences broken down, they are frightened. This is usually on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights. What is the situation with that?
Inspector Banham ~ In relation to Martyn and Mike?
The Chair continues ~ Well there is no-one about is there? I am not saying that they should be working 24 hours a day like I do, but what I am trying to say is that being in the village at 9 oclock on a morning; it is nice to see them; it is good to see them; but what is the situation later on? Is there somebody else, or what. Obviously it’s more difficult because the pubs and clubs are open till late. I get up about four o’clock in the morning and it is chaos sometimes on a Friday night and Saturday morning. You are in a difficult situation there, but is there something that could be done if it was only once a month that you do a hit.
Inspector Banham ~ In terms of numbers, we are not getting any more police officers. We are not getting any more PCSOs. We have got our establishment and it does not matter how many moans, complaints, representations I make we are not getting any more. That is the establishment of the Central Division of North Wales Police.
In terms of problem solving, Mike and Martyn have got flexibility to work whatever shifts they want, they are not tied down. Obviously they have got to have their rest days, which they are entitled to and they are entitled to have holidays. So if there is a specific problem that needs addressing, they have the flexibility to change their shifts to address those problems. That is what they should be doing and that is what is going to be happening with this action plan that is ongoing now today in relation to some of the problems that we have got. If Mike has a problem that requires action, then if he wants to work four or five nights the yes he can. We do have special Constables that come in and do a really good job and where they can they are asked to go to certain crime and antisocial behaviour hotspots. The last two weekends, Special Constables have been up here. It is a massive district and we have got Crime and antisocial behaviour hotspots everywhere, my job then is to prioritise and say sorry you can’t go there tonight; another area is more important, go to that.
Chair ~ You had a lot more officers wandering the streets last week and it made a big difference.
Inspector Banham ~ They were Special Constables.
Chair ~ The young people who do the antisocial behaviour are just a nuisance
Inspector Banham ~ For example on the way here tonight there is a major fire in Colwyn Bay Town Centre and there is quite a lot of extensive damage. We have caught the people who have done it but it needs to be cordoned to protect the public and so any police officers that we have got unfortunately have got to do down there, that is the priority at the time. If Mike and Martyn have got a specific problem that they are aware of or that you have told them about, then it’s their job to tackle it in whatever way they see fit.
Chair ~ Well, seeing that Mr. Rafferty (Conwy Licensing Officer) is here, you big problem is drink being sold to these young people. Emyr gave an example recently of two sixteen year olds who crossed the road from Somerfields and walked into the alley at the back of his shop. His point was that someone had sold the drink to them or someone had bought it for them.
Inspector Banham ~ Yes well I think our biggest problem in Old Colwyn at the moment is… We have test-purchased this area… to death basically and our biggest problem is not underage going to buy the drink, it is the one’s who are older buying it for them. We are aware of who they are and Mike and Martyn are trying to tackle that. It is not just people buying it for them, some of these are employees of these places who are giving the nod and wink to some of their mates and we are aware of that.
Chair ~ Mike and Martyn are trying to fight a battle there that at the moment they can’t win. And the other thing is they come up our back alley (Back Abergele Road) and the glass and the mess that they leave, that again is midnight to 2 o’clock in the morning. When I take the dogs out at 5 am, I have to clean the street first. They leave glass on the wall, if someone put their hand on it…..
Another resident interrupted to give an example of glass and boxes being left in a church garden in Back Abergele road regularly.
Chair …. Everyone has his opinion but that is the problem, they are getting drink, they have got three places to get it in this village…. If you could just get hold of that issue….
Inspector Banham ~ I think that with The Council Licensing Department, they do a lot of good work. The work that East Conwy does with Licensing… I would be very surprised if it happens anywhere else. We have an extremely good working relationship tackling test purchases and the licensees and pubs and long may it continue. I know Mike has got that in his action plan to do more work with Licensing to tackle the problem.
Councillor Cossey ~ Just to put that into perspective, I remember you telling me two or three weeks ago that you had done twenty test purchases in Old Colwyn and all of them were clean. I was talking to another CBM recently and she told me that her biggest problem is that parents are buying the drink and taking it to their 13~14 yr olds. Perhaps we have some of that also?
Inspector Banham ~ I think that our problem is the 19~20 yr olds buying drink for them, there seems to be a core here who don’t want to go to the pub, I don’t know why but they want to hang around with people younger than themselves who can’t go in the pubs. Mike and Martyn are aware of this. Test purchases will not achieve anything now, our issue now are sales by proxy and drunkeness. Drunken people going into pubs and still being served, that is something we are working on with Licensing.
Chair Every chain of supermarket and drink outlet is to sell drink as cheaply as possible and as soon as it is outside the door they don’t care what happens to it next.
Inspector Banham ~ We have got an initiative ongoing in the area called Operation Boozebuster. We have alcohol detecting strips from a company in Derby. This allows the CBM to combat the young people who are drinking gin or vodka, contained in a Pepsi or Fanta bottle. If the young people smell or are acting as if they are under the influence the officer can use one of these strips to test a sample of their drink to see if it is alcoholic. That is another thing that is being done to tackle the problem of underage drinking. It is not just police it has got to be education, parents and other agencies to assist us.
Question ~ Is there some way that you can fine parents; you know if your child is drunk, you know they have got the drink from somewhere. There is something wrong…
Inspector Banham ~ If we confiscate drink off young people, we take them home and speak to the parents in front of them and we issue them with what we call a yellow card, in terms of football, a yellow card is a warning type thing. They then go on our database, so that we are aware of them. Obviously parents have got to take some responsibility for the actions and the behaviour of their children.
Question ~ can’t you fine them for having children out of control?
Inspector Banham ~ It is not something that we would do, we would prosecute them but then they would then become involved with Social Services, Probation and Youth Offending, who can put restrictions and make them attend parenting classes but that is a long way off and not on a first offence.
Resident ~ related an incident on a bus that she had witnessed where two people in their thirties had been discussing someone who had grassed to the police about a person having drugs in their house. The discussion had taken place in front of a nine or ten year old with one of them.
Mr Rafferty ~ Thanked Inspector Banham for her kind words about his Department. He reiterated that the police and Licensing have a good working relationship and said that they have achieved a great deal over the last three years since the new licensing laws came under the council. When the new laws came in and pubs and clubs could open longer, there was a real fear factor that it was going to get worse out there and although that may be your perception he said, I can tell you that it is a great deal better than it was previous to 2005.
He went on to encourage people to give information about anything that they see which they think could be useful to the Licensing Department, he pointed out that proxy sales where a person of appropriate age buys the drink for someone else, is a real battle to combat. “Having said that” he said “it is important that you call that to our attention” He then offered his details by way of the secretary.
Richard Poynton ~ spoke of the problem of youths congregating in the alley called Back Abergele Road behind the shops. They get drink they smash bottles and generally make mess. He said that he had phoned the police on several occasions via the control centre. He had left his name and address and had never seen anyone. He commented that after that has been done three or four times, you just get cheesed off about reporting it. He felt that nobody cares and chastised the young people himself.
Inspector Banham said that she understood his feelings of frustration and asked him to carry on reporting the matters and also to leave a message for CBM Mike Williams and Martyn. Even if the police can’t send someone there and then, this is a problem that is happening every weekend and it is something that Mike and Martyn should be dealing with because it is not a one off it may be that things such as cameras could be put in place.
The Chair gave an example where he and his wife had seen two twelve year olds who were drunk in the alley the previous night. He spoke of a need for the officers to possibly work a few late shifts to give the message that the alley is not the place to go. It was generally agreed that there was a need to identify the people concerned.
CBM Mike Williams on the subject of flexibility said that he and Martyn had identified a need for one of them to be on duty at weekends changes had been made to allow this to happen more frequently.
Question ~ What response do the police get from parents when they take the children home
CBM Mike Williams replied that it is mixed really but some parents are supportive others don’t care.
Inspector Banham added that the parents who don’t care are generally known to the authorities and other agencies are working together to address it. She gave an example recently where as a result of problems with youths drinking in the Town Centre, the CBM and a Youth Offending Team member had gone to the homes with the children and two lots of parents had told the officers not to come to the house unless they had evidence. At a later time, the youths had been taken into custody and the parents had changed their attitude when confronted with video evidence that they were previously not aware of.
The Secretary outlined that the reason that the Inspector had been asked to attend the meeting was because the secretary had been told by police managers that he was deploying officers himself. This he said he took issue with; he had rung the CBM and PCSO direct but said that he was of the opinion that police officers deploy themselves and that he does not deploy officers.
He said “if I ring an officer to tell him that there is antisocial behaviour going on outside the house or in the garden across the road, that is information that they want to know.
Inspector Banham Yes that needs to go via the Control Room.
Secretary I know that it needs to go by the Control Room, most of the time it does but there are times when it is very difficult to go through the Control Room, You have explained in your email to me that it should even if it takes a minute more; but it does not take an minute more, tonight there was an incident and it took seven minutes to go through the Control Room by which time if the officer is on duty and you can speak to him he can make a decision about whether he should deploy and really when they do self deploy they inform the operations room to tell them that they are going. So there is an incident created. It is not like I have bypassed the Control Room as it were; it is a case of dealing with the incident and helping the officers themselves to deal with incidents that are going on and helping to get to the root of the problem.
He read a list of local problems
· Drinking in Tan y Coed Park and the Zigzag path on Cliff Road, regularly bottles and boxes are picked up from this location.
· Saturday 9th June at 2.30 am, three men were smashing a beer bottle in Cliff Road and getting over the railings into the Church garden. We phoned the operations room then and normally with anything like that we would phone the operations room. Officers attended and decided not to do anything. The people concerned were still creating a noise which could be heard from where I was taking to the officers. There decision was not to go in because it might inflame the situation. I did not take exception to that decision by the officers. The next morning we found out that they had damaged the wooden compost bin in the Church Grounds. I got a picture of one of the men off a website and it is a month and we cannot find out who that person is. That is one issue where my wife phoned the ops room and went through the procedure while I went out to confront them, which I have been chastised for doing “Don’t do
· it because it is dangerous”. I know that it can be dangerous but I am sensible about the way I do it.
Inspector Banham ~ So that call has quite rightly gone via the Control Room
Secretary ~ It went via the 999 because it was an incident.
· On the 21st June the main window of the Catholic Church was damaged on two successive days
· Saturday 23rd June 6.50pm, there was an incident where a group of youths were intent on climbing over the Church railings in front of our house and just pushing through a planted flower bed. These people left and swearing and urination in the street followed that and it was on that occasion that I phoned Mike and then Martyn who was on duty and he came.
Inspector Banham ~ That should have gone via the Control Room
Secretary ~Yes but if we had phoned the Control Room, we would have had to say exactly where it was, explain where Old Colwyn was, on occasions, I am only being a little bit facetious, but you do really have to go down to the nitty gritty and it takes a lot of time by which time, things have gone. On that occasion, Martyn came and I told him where they were moving to and he detained one of them and found out who the others were and yellow cards have been issued. As a result of that, we wrote to the Deputy Chief Constable a letter of thanks for his actions. Had we have phoned the Operations Room on that occasion then there is a possibility that we would not have detained those people because they would have moved. The answer “well it doesn’t matter you have still got to go through the operations room does not actually help me. It was my decision to phone Martyn and I accept that there is an established procedure but there are also incidents happening where you think; if I phone Ops Room….. Let’s see if Mike or Martyn is on duty, I think that that is a fairly reasonable thing to do.
Inspector Banham ~ well regardless of what you think of the control room, the policy and procedure is there for everybody, not just North Wales Police but throughout the whole country we all have a control room.
Martyn is a PCSO, does not have and is not supposed to attend any incident of conflict or confrontation. He only has cuffs, he doesn’t have spray and a baton and has limited powers to detain people in certain circumstances. So Martyn should also have made a decision to say “Sorry I cannot attend” Somebody else has to attend that so there is also a responsibility on him as well.
Chair ~ I think going from past years, the Control Room sometimes leave quite a bit to…., I don’t think they are fair to you. I had an occasion to ring some weeks ago and I was pushed to four different people.
Inspector Banham ~ To be fair Em you know, issues with the control room are not my issues, If you have an issue with the Control Room and the quality of service that they are delivering, as I have in some instances, you need to address that with them.
Chair ~ You have enlightened us a lot tonight.
There were a few short questions about incident numbers being created which were answered by the Inspector who stated as soon as you report an incident and the person starts typing on the screen and incident is created. If you want the number you should ask for it. Sometimes the operator will offer the number to you. In control room, there are temps working there who have no police knowledge and no police background and so sometimes the quality of service is not as good as it should be. That is an issue for control room, not myself. Any such issues that I have I speak to them and ask them “ can you make sure that you do this….
The Inspector then offered some booklets about neighbourhood policing and phone number cards.
The Chair thanked the inspector for coming and CBM Mike Williams. There was a round of applause
