Old Colwyn East Residents’ Association
Minute of a Meeting between the secretary and Superintendent
Terry Kellaher of Central Division Community Policing Department on Friday 26th January 2007 ~ reference the letter to the Chief Constable about the withdrawal of a CBM from old Colwyn.
Terry Kellaher of Central Division Community Policing Department on Friday 26th January 2007 ~ reference the letter to the Chief Constable about the withdrawal of a CBM from old Colwyn.
The secretary thanked Superintendent Kellaher for meeting him to discuss the letter that the Association had written to the Chief Constable.
Secretary gave Supt Kellaher a copy of the association annual report from last year. The purpose was to show good relationship with the police, no anti police sentiment and policing is a small part of our Association work in Old Colwyn.
The association has recently written to the Chief Constable, to express our discontent about the lack of a police post in Old Colwyn despite the fact that the agreement was signed nine months ago at the official opening of the Interchange building.
We feel very strongly about the loss of our CBM.
For some time now the Old Colwyn CBMs have been used elsewhere quite regularly, for instance in a rowdy vehicle at the weekend.
In such circumstances, residents find themselves confronted with public order situations when the CBM is either off duty or in another area. An example of this was last weekend when the secretary and his wife heard a loud commotion in the late evening and walked out to investigate.
They found that the noise was being caused by a group of 15 youths who were acting aggressively. They were seen to be coming up from Beach Road via Llawr Pentre. None of the Community Policing Team was on duty. This is a regular type of occurrence and damage is caused to property and much disruption to the lives of residents by these youths at the rear of the shops near Llawr Pentre.
Once the event is seen it has to be monitored and assessed as to whether, once the initial aggravation is past it is worth ringing in to the police to divert officers from other areas. At 10.50pm approx, the youths dispersed from Cefn Road. People often complain about such antisocial behaviour and when officers arrive, they later say “well they were not doing anything wrong when we arrived”. That is not the problem time; the problem time is before the police arrive when the number of youths congregating and their aggressive displays do cause concern to passing residents.
There is information that a minority of local youths are carrying socks containing stones or snooker balls as weapons. A seven inch bladed knife was found in the church garden a couple of weeks ago.
Somerfield is a particular hotspot because of late night lighting. The store is open until 10pm.
There is no CCTV camera in Station Road which hampers the collection of evidence. People gather in Station Road out of sight of the CCTV. The Superintendent spoke of
deployable CCTV cameras, which attach to lampposts. These are an option he said.
Using that as a snap shot of the problems in the village, bearing in mind that there is interaction all the time with the local officers who know that we are busy, working together as a team, the way that it is supposed to be, suddenly Katherine Parmley said at the last meeting, “ I am going from Old Colwyn”.
We know that 24 officers are going, 8 from each Division; some are Response Officers, some CBMs.
With Response we experience delays at present because there are so few. We have aggressive young people fighting in the street. When it is in Cefn Road, it should be caught on CCTV. Somerfield now have CCTV installed to monitor the outside of their premises. They also have a security guard there now on occasions.
Katherine is going, all this has started to take hold and we are starting as a partnership to get to grips with the various groups of youths, taking over as the older ones move on.
We are aware that there is a funding issue, we know the arguments, what we don’t know is why the shortfalls occurred. If we go back twelve months ~ when you get a budget you don’t go steaming ahead with all sorts of issues, spending it all, you act wisely with a mind to the future and sustainability. To say now that you have had to get rid of 120 Police Staff is unacceptable.
North Wales Police precept is the highest in Wales and the 10th highest in the country. We are now being told that they require an extra 10% on the precept for next financial year to maintain community policing when we have already lost our CBM to fill a control room post.
We are aware that control room is viewed as front line duties. You need a mix of officers and support staff for operational efficiency but to put more police officers there when you have got rid of the police support staff, there is something wrong.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ To clarify the situation, they are not all police officers in the control room, there is still a high percentage of police support staff, it has just been reorganised
Secretary ~ Reading the police blogs, if they get the extra funding in April, they intend to buy back x number of PCSOs and CBMs but Katherine has gone there for 18 months so she is not coming back. Even if they recruit a CBM for Old Colwyn, it won’t be Katherine coming back, it will be a cycle of recruitment and training first.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ If it is a CBM, it’s not a big training issue, all we need is an officer who wants to come for instance to Old Colwyn.
Secretary ~ Katherine did not want to leave.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ I accept that, the criteria for the officers that were moved came from ACPO, all three divisions had no say in the matter.
Secretary ~ It is not a divisional issue that we are talking about. Divisionally, the residents association works as a member of a partnership team, which the officers will confirm.
The issue is that we wrote a letter to the Chief Constable and we meant everything that was said; to put the Control Room in St Asaph was ill conceived as there are few people living there who can support it. Officers are being told that they have got to travel up to 35 miles to work there.
This is supposed to be a green organisation; It is not very green to have people traveling 35miles to and from work every day. Whose idea was it to put the Central Division Headquarters in St Asaph? These are issues that we have written to the Chief before. It is not about the Central Division, it is about the Organisation.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ Clearly, Katherine has gone and she will serve there for 18 months: Depending on the funding that becomes available, I will have to work out what resources will be available.
Secretary ~ For you to say on behalf of the police force that Kath has gone for 18 months, that is not a short term issue. She has been in Old Colwyn for two years of a three year unwritten contract. She is the third one to leave after a short time.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ We need to get to a point where we have some consistency and that was the idea behind the contract.
Secretary ~ CBMs areas will be bigger, they have to deal with all sorts of issues within their areas, acceptable behaviour contracts and a host of other issues, all of a sudden their areas are twice as big. What patrol work are they going to be doing. The patrol work will all be done by a PCSO. Martyn is a very committed officer.
There were to be two CBMs and 2 PCSOs in the two wards. How can one PCSO do the job? So we will inevitably get intermittent short term policing from a PCSO and maybe from the CBM if he or she has the time.
We have two wards in the central part of Old Colwyn, now staffed by 1 CBM and 1PCSO. Neighbourhood policing has changed.
At the first public meeting in Conwy when the concept of CBM was discussed, the Chief Constable said that the CBM would be a manager of his or her area.
One can understand if there is an issue about how the police have used their funding and the funding levels in future that there will be a new way using a CBM to manage PCSOs in their area. I can understand that as a concept although it is not the concept that we all signed up to.
We were asked to pay more for local policing in the precept two years ago and we agreed that we would be happy to pay more to have local police and that money should have been ring fenced. CBMs were maintained with our money to give local policing. That does not include them sitting in a control room in St Asaph, although I understand that it is an important role.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ There have been issues of appointing and training people and seeing how they get on in the control. They have now come away from there.
Secretary ~ It is a huge distance to travel to St Asaph from anywhere and there is no public transport, why didn’t they think of that before putting control there.
The force is also thinking of centralising custody for east and west divisions at Parc Menai and Northop. You create a huge amount of traveling when you do that. Arresting officers from Old Colwyn or Betws y Coed travel to St Asaph, often more than once to deal with a prisoner.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ That was a decision made via a business case and signed off by the Police Authority.
Secretary ~ I know but the Police Authority is only doing what Mr Brunstrom tells them. They are not people who plan the future. That is done by the Chief with his ACPO team and the financial director. They planned where the Control Room would go and suddenly they are unaccountable for where all the money has gone : The detail, the fine detail.
It disturbs me that the police corporate eye has gone off the citizen. The focus for the police has always been on the citizen and it did not matter in previous times if the force was third or sixth in the league tables.
The Force has not got to be top of the league table as long as it satisfies the public and they do that by having officers patrolling, not necessarily on foot or in a vehicle but regularly and effectively, most days.
Officers work 4 days a week on 10 hour shifts and often two officers will be working at the same time, patrolling together. We know that there are necessary issues of health and safety and perhaps teaching issues at times.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ They should not be double crewed unless it is an operational requirement. With PCSOs of course there is the advantage that there are no abstractions. If there is an arrest, the police officer will take the prisoner away. There are always response officers on duty to do that.
Secretary But they are thin on the ground, we know that from speaking to officers. At times there may be only two officers on duty in the whole of the Conwy part of the division. You are the Neighbourhood Policing Superintendent you need to know how we feel.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ That is why I asked to come and talk to you. We don’t know yet what the funding will be in April. We have a plan, predicated upon various options. I am getting lots of letters from Community Councils, Assembly Members. The Police Authority meets to set a precept on 16th February.
Secretary ~ If the Force were to get 10%, ACPO has guaranteed that 5% above the 5% for a standstill budget will be applied to the support of Neighbourhood Policing. You have taken our officer away for 18 months. The funding for PCSOs has been reduced to 99.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ 157 PCSOs, we will have 157 in April, of course then there will be a 10 weeks training course for them.
Secretary ~ Neighbourhood Policing has changed completely.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ Yes, we are moving to community policing teams with a CBM managing PCSOs together with dedicated Special Constables and Active Community Volunteers.
The National model is there to develop it and is there to be used, it is based on the hundred that we have got, we have got to get as much community policing as possible.
Secretary ~ By means of a company called Swift, 1500 people are questioned by the police twice a year and have apparently said that they would be pleased to pay more for Community policing. Nobody that I know has been asked and none of our residents know anyone who has been asked so there is an issue of a lack of trust. How do we know that the people asked are representative of our communities?
The Chief Constable now says that people have been consulted and are happy to pay more. We have been through that exercise before and it is part of our letter to the Chief Constable and you have taken away our CBM. The rules have been changed on the hoof so to speak
Superintendent Kellaher ~ Let us put the horse thing to bed, you know that policing is a complex business and a very small mounted section is required to support neighbourhood policing.
Secretary ~ How?
Superintendent Kellaher ~ High visibility policing.
Secretary ~ What happens now in Old Colwyn if the horses are walking through what does it achieve?
Superintendent Kellaher ~ Reassurance.
Secretary ~ It does not reassure me, if something happens, what then?
Superintendent Kellaher ~ It will reassure a lot of people.
Secretary ~ No they will just say there is a police horse. People feel, what if somebody steals something, how will the person on horseback in the middle of the street deal with that. Yes they can deal with crowd situations but how many crowd situations do we really have in North Wales and is it so cost effective as to justify taking away our CBM.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ There is a great deal of data available to show a massive reduction in general disorder just by the presence of a horse, that’s what they do with them in the bigger city forces. There is a great deal of benefit to a Divisional Commander in visible policing.
Secretary ~ It is the timing that is at fault. The chief constable unveiled it just before stating that people would be happy to pay more for neighbourhood policing. You think of £1400 a shift for a horse. You are taking away all these officers from the front line to go to the control room. We are losing experience.
There ensued a conversation about the primary concern of the Residents Association. The secretary pointed to the St John’s Church Garden project in partnership with the Parochial Church Council and used it to show that policing is not the primary concern of the association, which exists to improve the amenity of the area for residents. Policing is just another partnership but issues such as this are of major importance to local people.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ How well attended are the policing meetings?
Secretary ~ Up until the last one, not well at all, at some there have been less than five. The last one was better attended but not many from the Eirias Ward. At the Residents’ Meetings we get 30 – 40 a month attending
Superintendent Kellaher ~ Why don’t we combine policing meetings with Residents’ Meetings occasionally?
Secretary ~ I don’t know why except to say that the association boundary does not cover the same area as the police wards. Our residents attend our meetings and the police attend our meetings also. The residents know that the secretary reflects their issues at the policing meetings. I cannot speak for Eirias residents as to why they don’t attend perhaps they don’t get to hear and don’t reflect that they should attend.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ Clearly there has been some good work done on crime reduction.
Secretary ~ Who says so?
Superintendent Kellaher ~ That is what the figures say.
Secretary ~ The figures tell you but do they always show the true position? People do not ring up about problems any more because if you are lucky you get attendance fifty minutes later.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ Statistically crime is down, reassurance wise why aren’t people reassured, why is there a fear of crime?
Secretary ~ It is not a fear of crime, we hear the phrase so often, it is a buzzword. There is crime, low level antisocial behaviour going on all the time. People have grown to live with it. Now they know that police officers are being taken from the beat so their reaction is “Hang On there is loads going on and now they are taking our officers away” that is the feeling behind the letter that we have written.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ That is what they capture the data around, the fear of crime, the reassurance element.
Secretary ~ Yes but they are not very good at collecting data. You see, they do not ask the right people, they ask the Swift 1500.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ No it is the British Crime Survey.
Secretary ~ The North Wales Police are not good at knowing what the people who live in our communities think, because they don’t ask the right people.
We urge our residents to ring up and report incidents at every meeting. A lady stood up and told the last meeting that she had recently been abused at her door by an ex offender with a pedlars certificate. She had called the police and he was wanted and subsequently arrested. That was a positive message.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ I recommend the “No Cold Calling Scheme”. That will stop that kind of thing happening.
Unfortunately because people don’t ring in, it does not show as an emerging trend.
Secretary ~ North Wales Police is trying to prove that it is top of the tree as a police force.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ that’s numbers of detections.
Secretary ~ Mr Brunstrom is concerned about being the top of the tree, that is a personal thing. As a member of the public, I am not satisfied, OK we are top of the tree but we have a gang of 14 youths in the evening and there is not a Community police officer on duty. Yes you can call for a response officer and after prioritisation they do not come, based on experience. If they do come it is so late as to be a waste of their time. Many people have that experience.
Although computers may determine trends, the police force is not aware of the problems on the ground. The only way that can happen is by CBMs and PCSOs walking and talking and feeding information into systems.
You may think the force is doing a good job, but it is not carrying me or the members along with it.
The police force will succeed when it asks and listens to the people who know.
The Swift 1500 survey is viewed with suspicion and it says “Yes we would love to pay more for local policing”.
So much money has been expended on this so called independent survey, PCCG meetings are the same, it is a way of generating a wave of support that the Chief Constable can quote as happy to pay more on the precept.
It is apparent as a tactic employed by ACPO and the Police Authority executive.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ If you are getting 30 to 40 residents at your meetings, how do I get people to come to policing meetings? We will look at your top 3 or 4 problems and work as a team to solve them.
Secretary ~ At the second to last meeting, the top two issues were taken away, with three months between meetings, a police operation was set up one week before the last one. The officers caught some boy racers speeding around the back streets of Old Colwyn and they were applauded for doing so. We have now lost a CBM and we are going backwards. We are doing our part as a community and the police are changing the rules to suit themselves.
The Police, our partners, said that there would be a CBM and a PCSO in each ward.
The funding criterion is a known issue. It is weighted towards cities, our force does not even benefit as a rural force as it has a mix of large towns and urban. If the force knew that it was going to have cuts last year and probable cuts next year it should have done some housekeeping in order to create sustainability.
How the force spends its money is not known to us. The old style chief constable’s annual report showed how many officers were in different stations and divisions. We have no concept now for instance as to how many response officers are in Central Division in this area, except by our own experience.
People are aware that there are low numbers on duty at certain times of the weekend.
If there are known problems in the community and you are paying your money you expect the police to respond in a positive way with an officer on duty at pressure times.
The original concept put forward by the Chief Constable was that the CBM would be able to set his/her own duty times to converge with the problems of the area. This is not the case. They work from Colwyn Bay and are used in other areas. They operate a rowdy vehicle covering other areas at the weekend if they are on duty.
You are losing your CBM from your village, how do you feel about that?
Superintendent Kellaher ~ Well its not what we want, the funding issue is there that’s the position we are in. It is not what anybody wants.
Secretary ~ I expect the Chief Constable to say the most important priority is to have enough local officers on patrol, in a vehicle or walking. He has instead removed 24 from Divisions to control room.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ neighbourhood policing is on top of what there is on response and there is also operational support division.
Secretary ~ Well they do not stand out as available, we don’t see officers regularly anywhere. We are fully committed to our CBM and PCSO and the local Community Sergeant, good people. They are not allowed to do their own job, they are used elsewhere. That is to say they are part time local officers.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ If there are problems, then there should be some flexibility for the officers to deal with it.
Secretary ~ That is what supervisors do, make sure that there is cover for as many shifts as possible, particularly at the weekend. You do not leave your areas to fend for themselves; your residents association to do patrol without uniform.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ We have got more officers than ever before, 1600, it is just that there are many government demands, the Bichard enquiry, specialist departments have grown.. We have to decide where the biggest risk is. What do we stop doing? We still have officers on response. When the 999 goes, we have to respond. All immediate response incidents must be attended within 19 minutes.
We are getting towards where we want to be, clearly you are not seeing that.
The secretary then related a response issue about an attack on a neighbour’s property. The officer had attended but did not go to look for the offender and refused volunteer company to do so. Another incident was reported to him shortly after at the scene and he did not leave the scene. Two residents found the offenders.
We have written to the Chief Constable and he has sent the letter to you
Superintendent Kellaher ~ The Chief Constable sees it as a Divisional issue; we have taken away the officer based on certain criteria from ACPO.
Secretary ~ We have said in our letter that to invite large numbers of support staff to leave the service, whilst planning to replace them with CBMs and Response officers with at least 5 years experience when they are so thin on the ground is nothing short of irresponsible.
There are local issues that ACPO do not know about which are potentially quite serious, we do not retract any of the words that we have used in the letter.
The Chief Constable in his blog of 13th November applauds the citizens of Old Colwyn for the work they are doing with the environment. He applauds us with one hand and takes away with the other hand that one thing that we need to keep the lid on our problems: Our CBM.
We have worked with the CBMs with a number of important local issues that have been cleared. All of the info that has been given to Katherine and she has gone. No doubt she will have put the information into systems but it is very deflating to lose her local experience after 2 years of a 3 year contract.
I am sure that the Swift 1500 people will be happy with the response of the police.
Howe much does the consultation process cost per year. This letter is all about the way that money is spent by the police, was it necessary. Ordinary people talk to the police and give feedback of the feelings of the residents of North Wales.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ I wanted a flavour of local issues and I have got that.
The officers in Ops Room will not be call-taking they will be trying to resolve incidents in the first instance preventing the waste of response officer time and that of the CBM and PCSO. They will also have lots of other activities.
The two million shortfall for this year is the cause of the 24 officers going to Ops Room to replace the support staff who have had to go. There is nothing to say that it will not get worse.
Secretary ~ You say that the Chief has said that if the force gets a 10% rise this year then 5% will go to community policing. Personally I would prefer to see those people who have been given voluntary severance kept with the 5% and let the police officers do the job outside that they were trained for. Rather than losing officers like a brain drain.
Superintendent Kellaher ~ If we don’t invest in the force infrastructure, then we will be playing catch up in five years time.
Secretary ~ The base line is, eyes on the public not the league tables.
