Inspector Ashton address ~12th October 2005
The Inspector addressed the meeting. He said that he had been in post nine months and eight months since he last addressed the Association, when he had laid out the plan that he had to deal
Chair ~Can I just say to start with, from where I’m looking, we had an excellent CBM and I thought the plan was, he, with Kath who has joined him now, would help to sort the problems out in the village.. which there is no doubt they have done, especially him in particular. I would say they were no where near on top of the job, but he got respect and he knew who his problems were, he had maybe I would say control over them and even the other day one of the youngsters came to me and asked if it was true that Chris has gone. I told him yes and he replied, “Oh that’s not good is it”
It seems that the rug has been taken right out from under our feet; we understood that he was going to be here for three years. The other thing was that I think whoever has done the decision, we have been asking people to ring in to report things and there was definitely a good response from Chris and Kath fair play to her and from yourself and Sergeant Kelly. All of a sudden, with no explanation, with no consultation ~ I thought we were together in this and to me it does not look very together at the moment.
Inspector Ashton ~ Ultimately the decision was mine and I made the decision. You mentioned four officers’ names there, its only one officer that has gone, so we are not talking about 100% support that has gone, it’s an individual. Now you talked about the community beat program and the commitment and the foundations have been laid, now it is a two way street~ the Chief Constable expects the CBMs to sign up to that for three years: Chris did not…, Chris has never signed a contract and during this period of time has applied for a number of different posts.
So whatever things appear to you on the outside, things are different and there are a number of issues, that I have no intentions of going into this evening from my side of the fence as well that needed to be addressed as well.
But ultimately, I had to provide a member of staff, to support a colleague and this is a consequence of a number of issues but not least the number of major incidents that the force is currently dealing with, because we are still North Wales Police and as a consequence Chris Williams, myself, Gary Kelly we’re all North Wales Police officers and if there are pressing issues elsewhere then that is where we are put.
And in the same manner that I deploy my resources where the biggest problems are, the Chief Constable deploys his resources where even bigger problems are; and that is ultimately what has led to this happening.
Now I have been assured that this abstraction is only for a three month period. It may be that in negotiation with the Chief Superintendent that this post…this vacancy will be advertised sooner rather than later.
So we have been through this process before; I have removed a CBM from Old Colwyn previously and that is my intention again. It’s not me withdrawing from the community Beat program; it’s a case of; there is an issue with two different sides to it, I chose to withdraw Chris from Old Colwyn. Old Colwyn will still have two CBMs in the fullness of time.
So I’m not saying, you have lost a CBM, that post still exists and it’s for me them to manage that. The important thing is that during this period of time your PCSO has been off long term sick: Martin is due to start back a week on Friday back into full time work. What we have done, as I have said before, we have this team ethos and put people where problems are or help out other areas when there is an issue. Kath Bennion, one of the other town PCSOs has been coming over to Old Colwyn providing some patrol as well.
So in that regard, whilst Martin has been abstracted through no fault of his own, its was an injury that he suffered; you have benefited from that ethos, in that there has been a PCSO here occasionally when she has been able to take time with covering both patches.
So it is not as if you have been left hanging.
So I am here, I take full responsibility, it was my decision I redeployed Chris on the basis of what I know about my district and the other commitments that other CBMs have got on as well, plus one or two other issues as well, that I’m not prepared to go into this evening.
As I said it’s not that the funding has gone from the post; it’s not that the post has been lost. The post will be filled again….
Chair ~ that’s sooner rather than later?
Inspector Ashton ~ certainly yes that’s right, I mean; I have just gone through a process whereby Llandulas and Llysfaen as an exception in the CBM program, has only ever had one CBM covering two Wards. Some time ago I gave them an undertaking that I would increase the CBMs up there and we have done that. There is now a CBM in each Ward.
That is not at your expense and that is not where Chris has gone: that’s a completely new post.
I am not stepping away from the Community Beat program, if anything, I am looking to improve and strengthen it so it’s just the circumstances in this particular case that dictated that Chris moves on.
Secretary ~ But of course the purpose of a CBM is local knowledge and Chris was up to speed on local knowledge
Inspector ~ as I explained, Chris did not commit ….
Chair… And that’s what they are supposed to do, is it? We did not know this…
Inspector Ashton ~ That is why I have come here this evening because I was aware …
Chair ~ But you can see that from our perspective; he has been on top of the job and I can imagine why he’s moved him to Rhyl, I suppose he is the ideal man for certain aspects of the job. All we can hope is that you will replace him with somebody as good...or ~ can I ask - is Kath here for a three year period?
Inspector Ashton ~ Yes Kath has signed a contract, she signed from day one. There has never been any resistance on her part not to commit to the role. The only way to change that is a personal or health issue. She is committed to it.
Chair ~ I don’t know if it is the right thing to ask but is it going to be a police man, rather than a police woman?
Inspector Ashton (with good humour) you cannot ask those questions in this day and age. It will be a police person.
A resident posed a question regarding contact with a CBM at 8am as she understood that CBMs started at 9am.
Inspector Ashton ~ the truth of the matter is that they start at all times of the day and their phones are switched off when they are off duty. If you have got an urgent pressing matter, either you ring 999 or you ring the police switchboard, so that another of our response officer can come to you.
If it’s something that you just want to bring to the attention of the CBM then you can leave a message or contact them again when they are next on duty.
There is flexibility, if there is an identified problem that recurs and they need to change their shifts then obviously they will do that but basically they don’t start at 7 or 8 am unless there is a particular need.
Chair~ I think perhaps the camera (CCTV) will come to our assistance if we get these radios as well. A lot of these kids are starting to walk across the road in front of cars, this last week or so it has been quite a problem, especially the girls.
Mr Poynton ~ brought up the subject of police driver training with sirens going through the village. On behalf of his elderly customers some of whom have sight problems, who are complaining about the speed and sirens. He had witnessed an elderly person having to scamper across the road in such a training situation because he was frightened.
The secretary recalled that Chris Williams had contacted the Training Department which was at that time at Headquarters. It has now moved to St Asaph and therefore the situation has changed, Old Colwyn is the same as anywhere else, they are just passing through. We are just the same as anyone else, it is not the issue about the training of North Wales Police officers: it is a business training people from elsewhere. The implications are that the police are making money which is ploughed back into policing but there are issues where they are driving very fast on our roads and although they do not drive hell for leather through Old Colwyn, people hear it and are upset by it.
Mr Poynton interjected that people cannot distinguish between training and the real thing
Inspector Ashton ~ I think at the end of the day it is a lawful and legal activity. If you start to get it frequently on a regular daily basis…..
Mr Poynton ~ there was four or five the other day, it’s becoming every day, it has become more often the last month.
Inspector Ashton ~ I’ll speak to them
Resident ~ There is a crossing in the middle of the village. One was going through the village yesterday at what I would estimate at over forty, is that legal?
Inspector Ashton ~ They have an exception from the Home Secretary specifically for police training.
The resident continued but if someone is on the crossing and the crossing is on green to that person and the police car comes flying up … I mean……
Inspector Ashton ~ That is the whole point of the training, if the lights are on red, then the officer should stop; they should be driving in accordance with the circumstances. If they see traffic lights coming up they should be prepared for them to turn red and the fact that someone may be on them and that is the whole point, and the whole reason why North Wales hasn’t had a fatal accident involving a police driver in a number of years.
Chair We now have three months where we only have one CBM and she cannot be here 24 hours per day seven days a week and our little friends will realise this. What is going to happen in the meantime, when things start to escalate out of control again…and it’s all back to square one and the new person has got to start…I know Kath to me looks very capable but she isn’t going to do it all on her own.
Inspector Ashton ~ No she isn’t and as I said there is no intention of reducing you down to one CBM. What I do have at my disposal with a degree of flexibility is an officer who has a dog and prior to becoming a dog handler he was a CBM. Whilst Llanddulas and Llysfaen, as I said to you before, had one CBM and that officer went off long term sick with an injury. During that time, they had no CBM cover at all and I was able to deploy this officer onto those areas. Now that we have got one CBM and the return of the other is anticipated as well, that is the flexibility that I have got to deploy Gary Morris to cover the gap.
Chair ~ so there is a degree of flexibility?
Inspector Ashton ~ as I have said to you before, this team ethos, where we have got a problem, I will put the resources. Part of my consideration is I have looked around my district and out of all the areas that have CBMs, taking into account other issues as well, which I won’t go into, this was an area that at this moment in time that could bear it but never the less, if things change…..
Secretary~ I spoke to Gary yesterday… Gary Kelly, the Sergeant, he rang me … and he said that Old Colwyn… he said, he thought was quite quiet at the moment and I said “I am sorry, you are wrong, it is not quiet at the moment”.We are getting…dark nights have kicked off, we are getting people amassing in Wynn Gardens, swearing, drinking and then leaving there and walking through the town usually in the back streets, down Station Road and the like, drinking, swearing openly, horsing around and these people are doing it with impunity. That’s not all, we’ve still got the ongoing thing with drugs in various places, in Station Road as you know; those things although they are not high priority for police …are high priority for the people of Old Colwyn, because it’s what we feel that matters and if we are concerned by things that are going on in Old Colwyn, then it’s not for the police to tell us that it’s quiet, it’s for us to tell the police that it is quiet.
Gary said to me “ it must that people are not phoning in, that we are not hearing, If we knew there were problems, We would put …as you said..( resources to deal)
I said “ I am sorry, you have got CBMs who should be walking and talking to people, I phone up regularly on my mobile, if I see something … it costs me 50p a minute and it’s the same for other people and the fact that historically we haven’t ..because of the response system, having to have it graded etc, you don’t always get people coming, people have backed off _ “What’s the point of calling?”. That has been acknowledged by the police on several occasions, that there is that withdrawal by the public.
Really as I said, it is up to the police to be asking the public “are there problems?” not waiting for the public to call and say there is a problem. I appreciate that people should phone up ~ and we always encourage our people as you know- to phone the police if they see anything.
Really there is a mismatch between what you appreciate and what we appreciate and I just thought that I would say that.
Mr Poynton ~ Also when people are urinating in public, you don’t always find out until it is in your shop doorway in the morning, it’s a bit late to tell the police then. Then you have to clean it up, clean all your doorway clean all your door and get it dry before a customer slips over on it, Friday night; Saturday night….
Chair Friday night in Wynn Gardens there were a load of fireworks being set off by about 20 young people because a customer came in and said they were landing in her garden in Wynn Avenue. She rang the police but she didn’t go out to find out if…. Things like that you just need to get on top of don’t you?
Mr Poynton ~ Its not always high profile..
Chair ~ It’s coming up to bonfire night…
Inspector Ashton~ Yes quite and it’s those community concerns that the CBMs are there to address, the point is that… and we have had a conversation recently, the feeling is that things are a lot better than they were twelve months ago.
Mr Poynton ~ But I have seen people urinating in public in so many places; I can’t believe that they do it.
Inspector Ashton ~ but then the point of the community consultation exercise is that one of the causes of that: Is it to do with poor conduct of licensed premises? : Is it to do with the availability of alcohol to juveniles? : Is it to do with shops selling fireworks to juveniles? : And then we have to work with other people who perhaps have other resources and abilities. I have been speaking to the head of Trading Standards just yesterday with regards to a specific operation to do test purchases at locations in relation to the availability of alcohol and fireworks particularly at this time of year; because we are going to be inundated with calls about people being frightened and that’s just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the number of people who are actually affected by the availability, setting off of fireworks at all times of day and night.
But in terms of going out and asking people, I can tell you even now that the demands outstrip the supply of the resources that I’ve got.
Even though crime is continuing to come down; reported antisocial behaviour is continuing to come down…
Mr Poynton... I think a lot of it though; in a community like ours …it’s the aggression from the youngsters that frightens people a lot especially older people and they will not go out after a certain time at night because they cannot see properly… but it happens in the daytime, the aggression kids coming out of school and going to school.
Inspector Ashton ~ That’s not particular to Old Colwyn, I assure you.
Mr Poynton ~ I know it’s a general trend but I’m asking what do we all do about it as a general thing…There must be an answer somewhere…There must be a way we can address this.
Inspector Ashton I have done as much as I can in the last twelve months with the resources that I’ve got and we are starting to look now to other partners as we have done throughout the last twelve months, and start to use some of the powers that they have got; the Housing Department and the private social landlords with the behaviour of some of the tenants that they have.
Or as I have said, Trading Standards and they are engaging the publicans, through Pubwatch as well.
As a consequence of that, we are addressing problems one at a time, so we are not getting the alcohol related violent crime, that we were twelve months ago. So we move on to another problem then and we try to problem solve these as we go along. No quick fix by any means and we are trying to get to the root cause of it.
But what you (Mr Poynton) are talking about there is addressing years of attitude which we still need to address.
Two Residents ~ made a complaint about young school girls hanging around the flats near the corner of Princess Road and Abergele Road in the morning dropping litter, spitting and accosting people to go for cigarettes for them. The ladies concerned thought that it might be advantageous if teachers were to be in the area and see what is going on. They may know the girls concerned. The girls give rude gestures to one of the ladies, who lives in a flat at the location when she looks out at them on her step. She said that she would not dream of going to pick up her outside mail, whilst the girls are present, she feels so intimidated and does not think of herself as a person easily intimidated.
Inspector Ashton ~ The problem is that this is an issue that is left to the police to deal with, we work within the criminal law and the law of spitting does not exist. (This raised some concurrent comments from those involved complaining about bad language which was also used)
Insp A continued ~ and its not so much the language itself, it is just very difficult. We are an enforcement agency and we take people into the criminal justice system there is not an offence of spitting, there is not necessarily an offence of “playing chicken” in the road and so it becomes very difficult to deal with.
I mean… please, we want to stop them doing it.
Mr Poynton ~ You could do them for litter though, couldn’t you?
Inspector Ashton ~ In relation to what?
Mr Poynton ~ They are always dropping litter there.
Inspector Ashton ~ Yes but by the same token, the Environmental operative from the Council can as well so its not just about the police. I’m talking about some of the low level behaviour that does intimidate people.
A Resident~ They intimidate each other they drag them round the corner to the back of Mr Poynton’s shop. In the morning they hang about there, they should be going to school.
Inspector Ashton ~ I just wanted to take the point about them asking for cigarettes and alcohol. The availability of tobacco and alcohol, certainly alcohol is at the root of a lot of the antisocial behaviour in the evening time. There may be a degree of ignorance but it is actually an offence for an adult to go in to an off licence and buy alcohol and supply it to underage persons.
Mr Poynton~ but somebody usually does.
Inspector Ashton~ Absolutely, that’s right, and again this is something that we have had discussions with trading standards about and we are looking to do some work. We are engaging the off-licences in a scheme similar to Pub Watch, just to remind them of their responsibilities and making sure that they are not giving out that type of thing.
A resident ~ Doesn’t spitting come under anti social behaviour.
Inspector Ashton ~ Well it is undoubtedly antisocial behaviour but the fact is, there is no legislation that prevents spitting.
Mr Poynton ~ I suppose if they spat at you?....
Inspector Ashton ~ Yes, that would be an entirely different matter. When you are talking about juveniles, the criminal justice system has a different view entirely. So in terms of the deterrent, it’s quite difficult: which is why we need to engage with the schools and the teachers and particularly the parents… and encourage them to take responsibility
Chair ~ I would imagine that the problem is with the officers that you have got available, well the officers that you can get out of that building, that its happening on the street corners in Colwyn Bay, Old Colwyn, Rhos on Sea…everywhere. Basically all it needs is for someone to turn up at the corner of Princess Road, at 8 o’clock for a few mornings a week and it would stop, I would say, or a couple of mornings and then do it again, because when Chris did that, they moved out by the bank but then they realised there is no-one about and moved back to the same place. It’s not nice, they are not nice, I mean they are quite aggressive.
Inspector Ashton ~ This is exactly the type of behaviour that the presence of Martin should properly address, its unfortunate that he has been off for so long but he will be back a week on Friday.
Chair ~ On a positive note, over the last twelve months there has been in my opinion anyway a marked difference and done a lot of good things which I don’t want to see getting removed by losing one of our officers.
Inspector Ashton ~ I understand your concerns, I mean, I see it as a job half done so far and I’m certainly not coming in here saying you are losing a CBM because everything is perfect, that’s not the case, and there is still a lot to be done.
A resident said he did not understand why groups of young girls walked along blocking the pavement and walking at him as if he was not there, which he found intimidating. He said he did not understand that sort of mentality and he wondered whether something could be done on the social side at schools, not by the police particularly..
Inspector Ashton ~ it has become ingrained behaviour and I would like to think that the police have started to challenge behaviour on a number of points and of course, police officers are back in the schools.
I am going to suggest that.. I come occasionally as do the other police officers and we stand up in front of you and you give us what for. What about the head teachers, inviting them down or perhaps even writing to them.
Mr Poynton That is a good suggestion.
Chair ~Can I just say to start with, from where I’m looking, we had an excellent CBM and I thought the plan was, he, with Kath who has joined him now, would help to sort the problems out in the village.. which there is no doubt they have done, especially him in particular. I would say they were no where near on top of the job, but he got respect and he knew who his problems were, he had maybe I would say control over them and even the other day one of the youngsters came to me and asked if it was true that Chris has gone. I told him yes and he replied, “Oh that’s not good is it”
It seems that the rug has been taken right out from under our feet; we understood that he was going to be here for three years. The other thing was that I think whoever has done the decision, we have been asking people to ring in to report things and there was definitely a good response from Chris and Kath fair play to her and from yourself and Sergeant Kelly. All of a sudden, with no explanation, with no consultation ~ I thought we were together in this and to me it does not look very together at the moment.
Inspector Ashton ~ Ultimately the decision was mine and I made the decision. You mentioned four officers’ names there, its only one officer that has gone, so we are not talking about 100% support that has gone, it’s an individual. Now you talked about the community beat program and the commitment and the foundations have been laid, now it is a two way street~ the Chief Constable expects the CBMs to sign up to that for three years: Chris did not…, Chris has never signed a contract and during this period of time has applied for a number of different posts.
So whatever things appear to you on the outside, things are different and there are a number of issues, that I have no intentions of going into this evening from my side of the fence as well that needed to be addressed as well.
But ultimately, I had to provide a member of staff, to support a colleague and this is a consequence of a number of issues but not least the number of major incidents that the force is currently dealing with, because we are still North Wales Police and as a consequence Chris Williams, myself, Gary Kelly we’re all North Wales Police officers and if there are pressing issues elsewhere then that is where we are put.
And in the same manner that I deploy my resources where the biggest problems are, the Chief Constable deploys his resources where even bigger problems are; and that is ultimately what has led to this happening.
Now I have been assured that this abstraction is only for a three month period. It may be that in negotiation with the Chief Superintendent that this post…this vacancy will be advertised sooner rather than later.
So we have been through this process before; I have removed a CBM from Old Colwyn previously and that is my intention again. It’s not me withdrawing from the community Beat program; it’s a case of; there is an issue with two different sides to it, I chose to withdraw Chris from Old Colwyn. Old Colwyn will still have two CBMs in the fullness of time.
So I’m not saying, you have lost a CBM, that post still exists and it’s for me them to manage that. The important thing is that during this period of time your PCSO has been off long term sick: Martin is due to start back a week on Friday back into full time work. What we have done, as I have said before, we have this team ethos and put people where problems are or help out other areas when there is an issue. Kath Bennion, one of the other town PCSOs has been coming over to Old Colwyn providing some patrol as well.
So in that regard, whilst Martin has been abstracted through no fault of his own, its was an injury that he suffered; you have benefited from that ethos, in that there has been a PCSO here occasionally when she has been able to take time with covering both patches.
So it is not as if you have been left hanging.
So I am here, I take full responsibility, it was my decision I redeployed Chris on the basis of what I know about my district and the other commitments that other CBMs have got on as well, plus one or two other issues as well, that I’m not prepared to go into this evening.
As I said it’s not that the funding has gone from the post; it’s not that the post has been lost. The post will be filled again….
Chair ~ that’s sooner rather than later?
Inspector Ashton ~ certainly yes that’s right, I mean; I have just gone through a process whereby Llandulas and Llysfaen as an exception in the CBM program, has only ever had one CBM covering two Wards. Some time ago I gave them an undertaking that I would increase the CBMs up there and we have done that. There is now a CBM in each Ward.
That is not at your expense and that is not where Chris has gone: that’s a completely new post.
I am not stepping away from the Community Beat program, if anything, I am looking to improve and strengthen it so it’s just the circumstances in this particular case that dictated that Chris moves on.
Secretary ~ But of course the purpose of a CBM is local knowledge and Chris was up to speed on local knowledge
Inspector ~ as I explained, Chris did not commit ….
Chair… And that’s what they are supposed to do, is it? We did not know this…
Inspector Ashton ~ That is why I have come here this evening because I was aware …
Chair ~ But you can see that from our perspective; he has been on top of the job and I can imagine why he’s moved him to Rhyl, I suppose he is the ideal man for certain aspects of the job. All we can hope is that you will replace him with somebody as good...or ~ can I ask -
Inspector Ashton ~ Yes Kath has signed a contract, she signed from day one. There has never been any resistance on her part not to commit to the role. The only way to change that is a personal or health issue. She is committed to it.
Chair ~ I don’t know if it is the right thing to ask but is it going to be a police man, rather than a police woman?
Inspector Ashton (with good humour) you cannot ask those questions in this day and age. It will be a police person.
A resident posed a question regarding contact with a CBM at 8am as she understood that CBMs started at 9am.
Inspector Ashton ~ the truth of the matter is that they start at all times of the day and their phones are switched off when they are off duty. If you have got an urgent pressing matter, either you ring 999 or you ring the police switchboard, so that another of our response officer can come to you.
If it’s something that you just want to bring to the attention of the CBM then you can leave a message or contact them again when they are next on duty.
There is flexibility, if there is an identified problem that recurs and they need to change their shifts then obviously they will do that but basically they don’t start at 7 or 8 am unless there is a particular need.
Chair~ I think perhaps the camera (CCTV) will come to our assistance if we get these radios as well. A lot of these kids are starting to walk across the road in front of cars, this last week or so it has been quite a problem, especially the girls.
Mr Poynton ~ brought up the subject of police driver training with sirens going through the village. On behalf of his elderly customers some of whom have sight problems, who are complaining about the speed and sirens. He had witnessed an elderly person having to scamper across the road in such a training situation because he was frightened.
The secretary recalled that Chris Williams had contacted the Training Department which was at that time at Headquarters. It has now moved to St Asaph and therefore the situation has changed, Old Colwyn is the same as anywhere else, they are just passing through. We are just the same as anyone else, it is not the issue about the training of North Wales Police officers: it is a business training people from elsewhere. The implications are that the police are making money which is ploughed back into policing but there are issues where they are driving very fast on our roads and although they do not drive hell for leather through Old Colwyn, people hear it and are upset by it.
Mr Poynton interjected that people cannot distinguish between training and the real thing
Inspector Ashton ~ I think at the end of the day it is a lawful and legal activity. If you start to get it frequently on a regular daily basis…..
Mr Poynton ~ there was four or five the other day, it’s becoming every day, it has become more often the last month.
Inspector Ashton ~ I’ll speak to them
Resident ~ There is a crossing in the middle of the village. One was going through the village yesterday at what I would estimate at over forty, is that legal?
Inspector Ashton ~ They have an exception from the Home Secretary specifically for police training.
The resident continued but if someone is on the crossing and the crossing is on green to that person and the police car comes flying up … I mean……
Inspector Ashton ~ That is the whole point of the training, if the lights are on red, then the officer should stop; they should be driving in accordance with the circumstances. If they see traffic lights coming up they should be prepared for them to turn red and the fact that someone may be on them and that is the whole point, and the whole reason why North Wales hasn’t had a fatal accident involving a police driver in a number of years.
Chair We now have three months where we only have one CBM and she cannot be here 24 hours per day seven days a week and our little friends will realise this. What is going to happen in the meantime, when things start to escalate out of control again…and it’s all back to square one and the new person has got to start…I know Kath to me looks very capable but she isn’t going to do it all on her own.
Inspector Ashton ~ No she isn’t and as I said there is no intention of reducing you down to one CBM. What I do have at my disposal with a degree of flexibility is an officer who has a dog and prior to becoming a dog handler he was a CBM. Whilst Llanddulas and Llysfaen, as I said to you before, had one CBM and that officer went off long term sick with an injury. During that time, they had no CBM cover at all and I was able to deploy this officer onto those areas. Now that we have got one CBM and the return of the other is anticipated as well, that is the flexibility that I have got to deploy Gary Morris to cover the gap.
Chair ~ so there is a degree of flexibility?
Inspector Ashton ~ as I have said to you before, this team ethos, where we have got a problem, I will put the resources. Part of my consideration is I have looked around my district and out of all the areas that have CBMs, taking into account other issues as well, which I won’t go into, this was an area that at this moment in time that could bear it but never the less, if things change…..
Secretary~ I spoke to Gary yesterday… Gary Kelly, the Sergeant, he rang me … and he said that Old Colwyn… he said, he thought was quite quiet at the moment and I said “I am sorry, you are wrong, it is not quiet at the moment”.We are getting…dark nights have kicked off, we are getting people amassing in Wynn Gardens, swearing, drinking and then leaving there and walking through the town usually in the back streets, down Station Road and the like, drinking, swearing openly, horsing around and these people are doing it with impunity. That’s not all, we’ve still got the ongoing thing with drugs in various places, in Station Road as you know; those things although they are not high priority for police …are high priority for the people of Old Colwyn, because it’s what we feel that matters and if we are concerned by things that are going on in Old Colwyn, then it’s not for the police to tell us that it’s quiet, it’s for us to tell the police that it is quiet.
Gary said to me “ it must that people are not phoning in, that we are not hearing, If we knew there were problems, We would put …as you said..( resources to deal)
I said “ I am sorry, you have got CBMs who should be walking and talking to people, I phone up regularly on my mobile, if I see something … it costs me 50p a minute and it’s the same for other people and the fact that historically we haven’t ..because of the response system, having to have it graded etc, you don’t always get people coming, people have backed off _ “What’s the point of calling?”. That has been acknowledged by the police on several occasions, that there is that withdrawal by the public.
Really as I said, it is up to the police to be asking the public “are there problems?” not waiting for the public to call and say there is a problem. I appreciate that people should phone up ~ and we always encourage our people as you know-
Mr Poynton ~ Also when people are urinating in public, you don’t always find out until it is in your shop doorway in the morning, it’s a bit late to tell the police then. Then you have to clean it up, clean all your doorway clean all your door and get it dry before a customer slips over on it, Friday night; Saturday night….
Chair Friday night in Wynn Gardens there were a load of fireworks being set off by about 20 young people because a customer came in and said they were landing in her garden in Wynn Avenue. She rang the police but she didn’t go out to find out if…. Things like that you just need to get on top of don’t you?
Mr Poynton ~ Its not always high profile..
Chair ~ It’s coming up to bonfire night…
Inspector Ashton~ Yes quite and it’s those community concerns that the CBMs are there to address, the point is that… and we have had a conversation recently, the feeling is that things are a lot better than they were twelve months ago.
Mr Poynton ~ But I have seen people urinating in public in so many places; I can’t believe that they do it.
Inspector Ashton ~ but then the point of the community consultation exercise is that one of the causes of that: Is it to do with poor conduct of licensed premises? : Is it to do with the availability of alcohol to juveniles? : Is it to do with shops selling fireworks to juveniles? : And then we have to work with other people who perhaps have other resources and abilities. I have been speaking to the head of Trading Standards just yesterday with regards to a specific operation to do test purchases at locations in relation to the availability of alcohol and fireworks particularly at this time of year; because we are going to be inundated with calls about people being frightened and that’s just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the number of people who are actually affected by the availability, setting off of fireworks at all times of day and night.
But in terms of going out and asking people, I can tell you even now that the demands outstrip the supply of the resources that I’ve got.
Even though crime is continuing to come down; reported antisocial behaviour is continuing to come down…
Mr Poynton... I think a lot of it though; in a community like ours …it’s the aggression from the youngsters that frightens people a lot especially older people and they will not go out after a certain time at night because they cannot see properly… but it happens in the daytime, the aggression kids coming out of school and going to school.
Inspector Ashton ~ That’s not particular to Old Colwyn, I assure you.
Mr Poynton ~ I know it’s a general trend but I’m asking what do we all do about it as a general thing…There must be an answer somewhere…There must be a way we can address this.
Inspector Ashton I have done as much as I can in the last twelve months with the resources that I’ve got and we are starting to look now to other partners as we have done throughout the last twelve months, and start to use some of the powers that they have got; the Housing Department and the private social landlords with the behaviour of some of the tenants that they have.
Or as I have said, Trading Standards and they are engaging the publicans, through Pubwatch as well.
As a consequence of that, we are addressing problems one at a time, so we are not getting the alcohol related violent crime, that we were twelve months ago. So we move on to another problem then and we try to problem solve these as we go along. No quick fix by any means and we are trying to get to the root cause of it.
But what you (Mr Poynton) are talking about there is addressing years of attitude which we still need to address.
Two Residents ~ made a complaint about young school girls hanging around the flats near the corner of Princess Road and Abergele Road in the morning dropping litter, spitting and accosting people to go for cigarettes for them. The ladies concerned thought that it might be advantageous if teachers were to be in the area and see what is going on. They may know the girls concerned. The girls give rude gestures to one of the ladies, who lives in a flat at the location when she looks out at them on her step. She said that she would not dream of going to pick up her outside mail, whilst the girls are present, she feels so intimidated and does not think of herself as a person easily intimidated.
Inspector Ashton ~ The problem is that this is an issue that is left to the police to deal with, we work within the criminal law and the law of spitting does not exist. (This raised some concurrent comments from those involved complaining about bad language which was also used)
Insp A continued ~ and its not so much the language itself, it is just very difficult. We are an enforcement agency and we take people into the criminal justice system there is not an offence of spitting, there is not necessarily an offence of “playing chicken” in the road and so it becomes very difficult to deal with.
I mean… please, we want to stop them doing it.
Mr Poynton ~ You could do them for litter though, couldn’t you?
Inspector Ashton ~ In relation to what?
Mr Poynton ~ They are always dropping litter there.
Inspector Ashton ~ Yes but by the same token, the Environmental operative from the Council can as well so its not just about the police. I’m talking about some of the low level behaviour that does intimidate people.
A Resident~ They intimidate each other they drag them round the corner to the back of Mr Poynton’s shop. In the morning they hang about there, they should be going to school.
Inspector Ashton ~ I just wanted to take the point about them asking for cigarettes and alcohol. The availability of tobacco and alcohol, certainly alcohol is at the root of a lot of the antisocial behaviour in the evening time. There may be a degree of ignorance but it is actually an offence for an adult to go in to an off licence and buy alcohol and supply it to underage persons.
Mr Poynton~ but somebody usually does.
Inspector Ashton~ Absolutely, that’s right, and again this is something that we have had discussions with trading standards about and we are looking to do some work. We are engaging the off-
Inspector Ashton ~ Well it is undoubtedly antisocial behaviour but the fact is, there is no legislation that prevents spitting.
Mr Poynton ~ I suppose if they spat at you?....
Inspector Ashton ~ Yes, that would be an entirely different matter. When you are talking about juveniles, the criminal justice system has a different view entirely. So in terms of the deterrent, it’s quite difficult: which is why we need to engage with the schools and the teachers and particularly the parents… and encourage them to take responsibility
Chair ~ I would imagine that the problem is with the officers that you have got available, well the officers that you can get out of that building, that its happening on the street corners in Colwyn Bay, Old Colwyn, Rhos on Sea…everywhere. Basically all it needs is for someone to turn up at the corner of Princess Road, at 8 o’clock for a few mornings a week and it would stop, I would say, or a couple of mornings and then do it again, because when Chris did that, they moved out by the bank but then they realised there is no-
Chair ~ On a positive note, over the last twelve months there has been in my opinion anyway a marked difference and done a lot of good things which I don’t want to see getting removed by losing one of our officers.
Inspector Ashton ~ I understand your concerns, I mean, I see it as a job half done so far and I’m certainly not coming in here saying you are losing a CBM because everything is perfect, that’s not the case, and there is still a lot to be done.
A resident said he did not understand why groups of young girls walked along blocking the pavement and walking at him as if he was not there, which he found intimidating. He said he did not understand that sort of mentality and he wondered whether something could be done on the social side at schools, not by the police particularly..
Inspector Ashton ~ it has become ingrained behaviour and I would like to think that the police have started to challenge behaviour on a number of points and of course, police officers are back in the schools.
I am going to suggest that.. I come occasionally as do the other police officers and we stand up in front of you and you give us what for. What about the head teachers, inviting them down or perhaps even writing to them.
Mr Poynton That is a good suggestion.
The Chair thanked Inspector Ashton for attending and speaking to the meeting.
ARCHIVE - TALKS and ISSUES July 2005_June 2006
