OLD COLWYN EAST RESIDENTS ASSOCIATION
Address by Stuart Lloyd ASBO Coordinator
The Old Colwyn (East) Residents Association
Open meeting 14 th July 2004 .
Mr Stuart Lloyd, ASBO coordinator Central Division, North Wales Police
Stuart Lloyd introduced himself as the person responsible for coordinating the antisocial behaviour response of the North Wales Police central division. His job is to collate information about incidents involving antisocial behaviour, supplied by officers who attend such incidents. Where there is proof that a person did something which caused harassment alarm or distress to another person, a form is sent to Stuart who puts the information onto a database of persons.
On receipt of the first evidential form , the information contained is just placed on the database. If nothing else happens regarding that offender, that is the end of the matter, so everyone is allowed one chance,
When a second form is received about the same person, a letter is generated, to the person in the case of an adult or to the guardian in the case of the juvenile. The letter states that the police are actively seeking to reduce antisocial behaviour and requesting the person to be supportive to that role. It also contains notice that should the behaviour continue, steps would be taken, possibly with a view to an Acceptable Behaviour Contract: a Parenting Contract or in certain circumstances, an Anti-Social Behaviour Order (ASBO).
If the bad behaviour stops there, that is the end of the matter.
If a third form is received in respect of a person, a letter is generated to the local Inspector, also to the council and to the Youth Offending Team. It may request a home visit from a social worker in the case of an adult and the Youth Offending Team in respect of a juvenile.
It is the job of these workers to assess if there is a problem which can be addressed. The concept is, intervention before the person enters the court system
On receipt of a fourth form the department has to set up a review group in either Conwy or Denbighshire. This is an opportunity for the social services, council and police to pool information that each holds on the particular individual.
A decision is taken on what to do with the person. The Youth Offending Team may address the matter with a Parenting Contract. Social services may use outreach workers or the decision may be taken to seek an ASBO.
If the decision is to seek an ASBO, then Stuart prepares a file and requests the community beat manager in a particular area to seek statements from persons able to give evidence to court to prove the bad behaviour.
There is sometimes a problem when people feel intimidated about giving evidence especially in the case of group behaviour.
In the case of civil issues it is possible to use expert witnesses, in such cases, hearsay is allowed, that is to say for an expert witness to give evidence of what he has been told, not necessarily what he has seen.)
Stuart related the case of a person who was causing problems for neighbours and in the end he was banned from the village.
There are two types of ASBO.
The standalone application and the antisocial behaviour order on conviction for an offence
In this last instance this can be a conviction where a person has not been previously reported on the North Wales database, for instance the person may have just moved into the area. If considered important enough, Stuart said he could apply to the court for an ASBO after the person has been convicted. He can use previous convictions and the offence for which the person has just been convicted in court. He must show that an ASBO is necessary to prevent the person causing harassment alarm or distress to others. Stewart said that occasionally he finds courts sometimes do not allow an ASBO on the first application but the situation is getting better.
Stuart said that it is his job to help protect the public against antisocial behaviour.
The youth offending team tends to focus on helping the young offender.
He said there are seven ASBOs in Conwy so far.
He spends a lot of time in court waiting for a conviction. On occasions there can be three adjournments to a case. Eventually if the person is convicted Stuart said an ASBO is applied for.
He said that he appreciated that often it can appear to a member of the public that a juvenile is reported perhaps several times and nothing happens.
A resident asked for some examples, as anti social behaviour can mean different things to different people.
Stuart outlined an incident in court where the individual had committed a catalogue of offences, just one of the incidents was riding a cycle on a pavement where people were shopping, where those people were harassed, alarmed or distressed. Despite all the other offences, the magistrates had criticised the police for using the offence of riding on the pavement as they believed it was insignificant.
A resident pointed out that we often read about high profile cases where persons are convicted of up to 30 criminal offences and put on an ASBO. He asked, “ Why not take them to court for those criminal offences. ASBOs seem to be taking the place of prosecution and cautions”.
Stuart answered that when a person is arrested for an offence a file is sent to the Crown Prosecution Service for a decision to prosecute. CPS can take into account previous offences, also whether an antisocial behavior order should be applied for depending on the recommendations of the reporting officer.
CPS can assist in applying for an ASBO.
The resident queried the example of cycling on the foot path.
Stuart replied it could be anything, such as throwing stones at houses, begging, drunk and disorderly, throwing litter. Maybe someone shouting at the top of his voice or it could be a criminal act or an incident of public order.
Bob Squire said the gangs are gaining in confidence because they are not being taken to task; they are starting to rule the streets .
Stuart pointed out that he has problems when dealing with cases of persons suffering from mental health problems who are causing harassment alarm or distress to someone else. He can apply for an ASBO but the court has to decide whether they should make a Hospital Order or ASBO. The court in principle tries to find a middle path; they cannot let the person continue, as they would continue to cause problems.
There was some discussion at this stage as to whether the information which is passed to the police is getting through to the Anti-Social Behaviour Officer .
A resident asked ‘ why are the gangs getting away with it?’
The Chair said ‘the gang of girls is there on the streets of Old Colwyn most nights causing problems, I ring the police regularly. I don’t see anyone respond’.
At this stage in the proceedings, Stuart explained to the meeting that in the last three weeks the system in his department has changed. The police have purchased a computer software system called Record Management System (RMS).
Colwyn Bay is the first area which has the RMS linked to the ICAD system as part of a new scheme.
Simply this means that if a person rings the police, the information about an antisocial behaviour problem is typed onto the ICAD system which manages active incidents. A new policy has been applied by the Chief Superintendent with respect to antisocial behaviour. Now, all such incidents will be attended by an officer. Every incident which is resourced, should receive a phone call back to inform the caller about the result.
A resident said that people are disillusioned with reporting incidents because of the lack of response.
Stuart explained that it is important that people continue to report antisocial behaviour problems.
He went on to outline that the responding officer should speak to the caller, deal with the incident and submit an RMS form to the ASBO officer. This means that 100 percent of antisocial behaviour incidents will be reported to his office automatically.
He then said that as he deals with two counties there is a probability that there will be another officer working with him soon.
The Chair said that often police officers have a conflicting point of view about behaviour when a caller might believe it to be antisocial behaviour. Some officers display an attitude that the person is not doing anything wrong. He illustrated his point by describing an incident where an officer was outside the Association meeting room a couple of months ago and when asked to remove some troublesome youths from the grounds had not wanted to do so. He was almost supportive of them and had to be asked firmly to ask them to go.
Stuart went on to tell us that if the incident is finalised and no report is received by his office, then the officer dealing with the incident will be automatically contacted for a result.
The Secretary said that the system often appears to be ineffective, as incidents are reported regarding particular people and then the same people are seen in other incidents still antisocial and aggressive . In this way it appears that nothing ever happens, names are taken and fed into the system which, without evidence is pointless. He asked the question ‘when is this system going to be streamlined’.
Stuart replied that the system will not streamline, except in the case of serious offences such as using and knives and stabbing.
A resident said “The impression given is that the ASBO is a way out for the police. Instead of dealing with an incident they appear to merely take note of the names and report it as an antisocial behaviour incident. Things just seem to drag on, as they have to be caught four times before they get to your committee stage”.
Stuart replied that if a criminal offence is committed, then this will result in arrest or other sanction and not necessarily reported to his office.
The resident asked “Do you see offences reported as antisocial behaviour?”
Stuart replied “I have seen borderline cases but not as a general rule”
The Secretary related an incident that had happened a few days previous. Four young girls were in Saint John’s church yard drinking and acting in anti social manner. They were screaming and shouting foul language and throwing their rubbish all over the garden and one urinated in the hedge. He had called police and shortly thereafter the drink ran out and the girls started to leave, throwing their bottles into a flower bed. He had cancelled the police with another call. An hour and a quarter later a police officer had rung back to say that they had attended and no one was there.
The Secretary told them that he had cancelled the call and they said that they had not received that information but would positively police the area that night, and take names if they saw anybody doing anything.
The Secretary went on to say that in other incidents officers had said that they took names of young people in the vicinity of an incident. However, unless there is evidence of an offence that is fairly pointless as evidence is required for an ASBO.
Stuart replied that if there is an incident and names are taken of people nearby, he will put the names on to the database, even though it is not evidential and they will stay on the database for a period of six months .
A resident said that she had reported situations of antisocial behaviour to the police five or six times and nothing as happened and asked “Is there a way to let you know that I have reported an incident to the police”.
Stuart replied “Yes, ring me by all means, I will leave my number, but the new system should mean that I get to know about the incident”.
Stewart asked if the Association had contact with the CBM. It was explained that since Christmas, there had been a policy of one visit every quarter to our monthly meetings.
The Chair said “Quite often there is no CBM. on duty at important times. Yesterday there were two police officers opposite my shop, at lunchtime; we want to see them on the streets on Friday and Saturday nights confronting the bad behaviour”.
The Secretary made the point that when senior officers had originally asked for local residents to pay more to the precept to pay for a CBM, we had been told that CBMs would be free to set their own duties in relation to the problems of their own area. At the problem times in Old Colwyn, there appears to be no local officer on foot. Instead at the weekend, if they are on duty, they help to man a 'rowdy vehicle' that patrols other problem areas as well as Old Colwyn.
It seems to be quite easy to pinpoint when the incidents that take place in Old Colwyn are likely to occur but there is a rarely any police presence to confront it and provide meaningful police evidence of wrongdoing. Instead it is left to t he public to ring for a police officer when an incident is taking place. There is often no response within a meaningful timeframe.
A Resident asked “ What is going to have to go, now that there is a new policy that all antisocial behaviour calls are to be resourced when that was not happening before”.
Stuart replied that there would have to be decisions made about the resourcing of other types of incident.
The resident asked “ What is the best wording to use to insure action to our calls”
Stuart replied that the incident will be resourced quicker if it is happening at the time of the call or if the caller feels threatened.
He told people not to use the 999 system unless they are threatened or a crime is taking place. There are other numbers to use generally.
He told people to state if they feel harassed alarmed or distressed by the incident.
Bob Squire related a recent decision in an area on the Wirral not to allow gangs of more than two persons on a platform at a railway station.
Stuart took this opportunity to tell the meeting about the provisions of the Antisocial Behaviour Act of 2003. One of the provisions is that of declaring designated areas, of which there are two in North Wales at present. One is at Holyhead and the other at Rhyl Railway Station area.
Such areas can be designated if the local superintendent (or above) believes that people in an area are likely to suffer harassment alarm or distress from gangs of persons.
The police must approach the council for agreement and the Designation Order can be signed.
If an area is designated, police officers have various powers in certain circumstances to take young people home, also if the officer believes that harassment, alarm or distress is likely to be caused by a gathering of two or more persons he can require them to disperse.
Stuart said that we are likely to see this power used more in the future. An area of Colwyn bay is being looked at for this purpose.
A resident spoke about bad behaviour by some young persons within her block of residential flats with intimidation being directed at her sometimes, when she reports the incidents to the housing association.
Stuart said that nothing can be done using ASBO legislation in a simple dispute between neighbours. Registered social landlords are required to have a policy regarding antisocial behaviour and that must be produced. He also said that an injunction was a possible solution to her problem.
At this stage, the chair drew the meeting to a close and thanked Stuart for a very interesting talk.
There was a round of applause.
Stuart left a number of leaflets entitled “Is antisocial behaviour affecting you?” which contains telephone numbers to be called in the event of different customer requirements.
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