OLD COLWYN EAST RESIDENTS ASSOCIATION
North Wales Police Authority – talk by Mr Chris Drew
8th October 2003
8th October 2003
Mr Drew introduced himself to those present and stated that he had prepared his talk in four unequal parts.
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Brief factual overview of NWPA
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The generality. Does it work? A very personal view of his role (warts and all), coupled with his views on the collective effectiveness of the Authority.
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The specifics. Touch on a few current and future issues, especially, those identified to him by the association
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Seek feedback from the members as to what they thought he should be doing.
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He sought a good dialogue because he thought a constructive but critical debate should make him a better member of the Authority and he did want to benefit.
He thought that we might want to ask him back in a year’s time to see if he has learned anything fresh or whether he is still giving the same talk.
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Brief factual overview of NWPAuthority
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Dates back to 1974; one of 43 Authorities in England & Wales. Policing is not a function devolved to the Welsh Assembly, so Home Office is still the sponsoring department of government.
Overview of responsibilities
Police Authorities make sure the local police force is efficient and effective and seek to improve police performance and standards. It is their job to make sure local people have a say in how they are policed and to hold the chief police officer to account for the services delivered. Police Authorities also set the force budget and decide how much money to raise towards the cost of policing through the local council tax
17 members (9 Councillors; 3 magistrates; 5 independents)
Specific tasks include
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engaging with local people to find out what they want from the local police force
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producing a three year strategic plan for policing
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setting local policing priorities and challenging targets to improve police performance after consultation with local communities and the chief police officer
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agreeing the police budget and deciding how much council tax local people should pay toward local policing
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publishing an annual plan which tells local people what they can expect from their police force in the year ahead
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reporting back to local communities at the end of the year on the extent to which the plan has been met
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appointing the chief officer and other senior staff
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monitoring the process and outcomes of complaints made against police officers and other staff
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How the Authority is Organised
-A full meeting once a quarter. He told us that the Authority has developing culture of having lead members for important specific issues of which there are about 30 at present, for instance Community Beat Manager roll-out, finance, estates, public consultation. Each of the 17 members leads on one or more topics. He was the lead member on Finance, Private Finance Initiatives and Estates. The total role of being an Authority Member takes about one full day a week.
In addition, each member serves on two or three committees that meet every other month, the main ones of which are:-policy, policing plan, performance review, professional standards, best value and human resources.
Mr Drew said that he was on the Committees which dealt with the policing plan, performance review and best value. He also usually attends the policy committee.
a plethora of panels, working groups and ad-hoc informal meetings. There is a full-time Clerk, part-time Treasurer and three policy and support staff. The whole lot costs £0.5M a year. The total police budget is £105M
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2. The generality. Does it work? A very personal view of his own role coupled with his views on the collective effectiveness of the Authority
In preparing this section of his talk he told us that he had set out questions to himself and tried to answer them honestly and he fully intended to share those answers with the meeting. In a refreshing departure from the norm he asked “If there are questions that I should be asking myself and haven’t, I would welcome them from you afterwards”.
He stated that he was no expert on policing being a retired accountant but there were rooms full of policing experts in H.Q. What he brought to the job was knowledge of the working of Public Authorities and a number of voluntary bodies. The Police is similar to the Health Service, it is all about money and resources, staffing, premises and a form of structure in the way things are carried out.
He outlined that he is paid £5000 per annum and for that he works for one day a week and does a number of talks and meetings.
In asking himself if the Police Authority has any power he decided the answer is yes but not absolute power. The working of the police force is a tripartite affair; between the Home Office, The Chief Constable and the Police Authority. The Home Office contribute 80% of the budget. The Chief Constable is protected by statute from interference in his control over operational matters. North Wales Police Authority has responsibility for an efficient and effective police force but has no say in operational matters. There is a division of power which is good for democracy but bad for efficiency.
The Authority meets once a quarter. He hazarded a personal opinion that this puts the Authority in a situation where they are not fully in control of the situation
It has a strong committee structure with lead members having delegated powers for the Authority. He felt that he was not convinced that this was the best way, It would be better if there were monthly meetings. Each member would be involved in several, not all of the agenda items but would be aware of every issue affecting the different groups.
The North Wales CC has a strong personality; he loves and devours publicity but is hurt by unfavourable publicity. When seen in action, he cuts an impressive figure but asked Mr Drew “does that translate into a highly motivated Force?” The Chief is extremely committed puts a good case and is a good communicator.
He may be too strong a personality but everyone has their own favourite style of leadership
The alternative to Home Office involvement is for all forces to do their own thing in what he likened to a patchwork quilt of semi independent police authorities.
He stated that he thought that the Home Office stifles initiative at the moment.
There is too much bureaucracy in the police force. He said he was appalled at the establishment of a committee for the reduction of bureaucracy
There is a cure for too much bureaucracy, that is, not enough information. A huge degree of effort goes into the production of figures for such things as the ethnic disposition of persons cautioned for offences. The amount of information clogs up the system. The cure is to trust people more; the dilemma is that it is a national issue. How else but by collating information do you decide if a force is getting better or worse. There is a huge building in Whitehall given over to collating the information required by the Home Office.
There is a move towards partnerships; this can lead to buck-passing and paralysis. In analysing what he meant, he pointed to the partnership between Conwy County Council and The Old Colwyn Residents
Mr Drew thought it perhaps works better than a committee where three of our group joined delegations from other groups.
The police force is not a law onto itself. It is accountable. The alternative would be a return to the bad old days of corrupt watch committees with the police in their pocket
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The specifics. Touch on a few current and future issues.
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Arrive Alive - Mr Drew said that he supported the campaign which paid for itself £1.6m collected and £1.3m running costs. The Chief Constable has to enforce the law, he has no discretion the initiative does not waste hours of police time such as was seen in GMP when James Anderton wasted 1000’s of police hours looking for men breaking the law in lavatories.
Dyna Ddigon – Mr Drew questioned whether this initiative is a gimmick, “will it make a difference?” he asked. When the ACC was questioned on whether it would be brought into disrepute if people in the area covered by Dyna Ddigon report antisocial behaviour getting worse, he had replied to the effect that it was possible in the short term but the Police are in it for the long term.
It was he thought an eye catching initiative to take advantage of a Home Office Grant for such initiatives.
When response is what is needed the force have gone down the avenue of CBMs, which is perhaps not the way forward.
Police officers doing non-police work and even many instances of non-police jobs. Mr Drew again feels that there are too many police officers at a high level doing non-police work and non-police jobs. Such jobs are Monitoring Performance. Best Value, Exercises in administration. Most of these jobs are driven by Inspectors who did not train to look at processes and analyse them applying business school ideas to them. This was he said a personal view. Persons trained at a high cost are better at doing their specialist jobs. The experts necessary to carry out the business functions should be imported.
Measuring the cost of bureaucracy. This issue is one which Mr Drew looks upon as his crusade. The production of all the information required by the police force takes up resources. There are about 2500 employees of which there are 1500 officers, which is a large number.
There is a new Home Office Initiative called Activity Based cost measurement and Mr drew said he is in favour of using the tool to measure the cost of such things as performance measurement and best value, thereby being able to question whether activities are value for money
The 2004/05 precept and after. This is one of Mr Drew’s lead areas and he spoke of next year’s precept which is being heralded at present at an extra 25-30% to keep the force moving forward. In a time of inflation at two and a half %, this increase in precept is 10 times greater than inflation.
He offered as an explanation of the issues involved the fact that the Home Office pay 80% of the budget. They look to restrict any costs above inflation. Mr Drew pointed out that most costs including pay are above inflation and that means that everything above inflation has to be paid for out of the police precept but because of a phenomena known as the gearing effect, everything that the Home Office restrict means that the taxpayer pays four times as much.
Costs building for next year include pay increases; a roll out of the new CBM’s with associated costs. The softening up process has started he explained, with indications that the precept will have to be 30% higher next year if there are to be no cuts.
He explained that it is his view that he should start at the premise that that is not acceptable and look at 10% as a figure and see what would suffer as a result. As one of 5 persons on the scrutiny committee Mr Drew was looking for a feedback from the meeting. He does not think that Government is taking its role seriously. 10% is a working figure he said and added that the Authority may instead pay what it takes to keep services.
Devolution The Welsh Assembly we were told because of the Richards Committee has fresh powers. The Fire Service has been devolved to the Assembly and it is foreseeable that in the future the police will follow. If they get hold of the service, what will they do with it? Well we have one Welsh Ambulance Service now and yet 22 local Health Boards. Will there be one Police Authority for three and a half million people or possibly 22 local police forces where the Council does the Police Authority function?
Mr Drew then asked those present to ask any questions that they wished and give him feedback.
Resident. If Westminster is not giving extra money, how will Cardiff find the money?
Answer. It will still be devolved as a block grant. The public service is under pressure. In order to save money, they make assumptions about efficiency savings. They ‘seek to promote efficiency’ and assume that the force will make savings of say 2% in efficiency. If we got £80million last year, they may then give us £77million plus inflation. We may make it back to £80million but in that way there is no increase.
Resident. Last year, the precept was 30% extra to pay for more CBMs, this year they want 25-30% increase. There are no police to patrol the beat or respond. Even when we are asking for one to respond, it can take up to 8 hours or more for one to attend.
Answer. There are highly trained officers in offices doing non e police jobs, we are gnawing at the edges of efficiency.
Resident We wrote a letter to the Chief Constable, one of our points made was “ Not every police officer is tasked with response, beat managers are very busy researching the problems of their neighbourhood and looking for solutions. When we want a policeman fast, the beat manager’s function can be seen by some as esoteric.”
Answer There will be another panel to look at this issue; the panels are open to the public to watch. The CBMs were given as the reason for the increase. I am not sure that CBMs are the way that the force should be going at present; we have to look at tasks and make the most of our staff.
Resident Why are there Inspectors behind desks doing non-police jobs, our CBM says that if she goes off on holiday nobody takes over from her and when she comes back it takes four days to catch up on emails and jobs that have been left for her. We need more people on the beat.
Resident You are the second member of the police authority that I have heard to say that the Chief Constable cuts an impressive figure and a good communicator making a very strong case for an increase in funding, He wants the best technology more staff. Another member said that the police authority just roll over and give him whatever he wants. We the public rely on you the police authority to keep matters under control on our behalf, it is our money that you are using. It would be nice to hear that the Chief Constable had been ‘cut off at the knees’ occasionally with his demands.
Answer It is his job to fight for the staff, equipment and resources that he believes North Wales needs.
Resident If Mr Tom O’Donnellsays that he needs 30% extra so that no cuts have to be made, it is a certainty that he needs significantly less than that in practice.
Answer Of course, I understand, most businesses are the same.
Resident Why not use more speed cameras on the fast roads to generate more income.
Answer I believe there will be a new initiativeusing the ANPR cameras and the way they are linked to the DVLA in order to generate an automatic fine for no licence. That will be a possible money-spinner.
Resident Back to the police headquarters where these high raking police officers are working in non-policing jobs, I have heard of officers retiring one day and starting back the next day at a higher consultative rate.
Answer When the police are short of resources it is a way of achieving an objective, the cost is higher because we are not paying National Insurance etc. As long as it is not abused it is acceptable. It would be unhealthy if it was to cover say a management decision to make savings by cutting staff.
Sometimes I have to be critical of all the paperwork that I read. Tom O’Donnell and the Chief Constable are extroverts ++ self publicists and given to self praise, sometimes.
Resident I have had the pleasure of being spoken to by the Chief Constable who said that by March 2004 there will be far more Constables in North Wales than ever. People want to see more officers. In Old Colwyn we used to have four officers now we have beat managers where are they all? We used to have four and now we have a part of one officer. The Population has gone up, the numbers of laws has increased, why hasn’t the number of officers kept pace.
You say that Arrive Alive brings in £1.6m and costs £1.3m. In the Conwy area, we need £50,000 for an initiative to make a road safe why can’t some of the £300,000 left over be channelled to other road safety issues?
Answer The Chief Constable has an ambition to make the criminals pay for the running costs of the North Wales Police. This is an attractive idea but I believe that that does not take into account that a large proportion of people will not actually be paying their fines. When this happens, the Courts take over and the Courts then keep the money.
The Chair at this stage drew the questions to a close and thanked Mr Drew for his talk.
